How much do I have to hate you?
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04-04-2010, 08:03 PM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
Back to the "No such thing as an atheist" thing? I find it ironic that your response to our disbelief is a disbelief of your own.

Gnosticism deals with knowledge. We go to to isolationism, where we are agnostic towards almost anything. However, if we were to simply accept that yeah, maybe everything around us is an illusion and all our senses are incorrect. Then we would sit there doing nothing because we don't know anything around us exists.

However, we bring in belief now. Belief can be true, and it can be false. It is my belief that my senses are correct, I could be correct, or I could be wrong. Atheism also deals with belief. I don't need a single piece of reason or evidence to believe something is(That is, it's possible to have unsupported belief, but most people prefer to believe what is supported).

I'm an agnostic towards almost everything(Again, getting to absolute truths), but I still hold beliefs along with my agnosticism. Most atheists are agnostics, as Unbeliever has pointed out, and it's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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04-04-2010, 10:37 PM
 
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(04-04-2010 05:44 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-04-2010 05:21 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  How about a question on that same line for you and the others on this site. Is it possible, that there is God, that is out there, that has not made himself known to you?

Yes, it's possible. It's also possible that there are leprechauns on Titan and that Cthulhu is real. But I don't believe those things, either.

Quote:So I have NO KNOWLEDGE of the God that Juppers talks of. I am "agnostic" of that God.

No, you're not. You don't believe in that god. You're an a-that-god. An agnostic is not one who has no knowledge of a god. It is someone who believes that the truth of some matter (usually a god's existence, but it can be something else) can never be known.
So you're not simply an agnostic. You're an agnostic atheist (though the "theist" should be replaced with "invisible-pink-unicorn-ist" or whatever). You are one who does not believe in that god but who believes that the truth about it cannot be known.
That's what most of us are. There might be a gnostic atheist on this site - one who believes that the existence of a deity can be disproven - but the vast majority of us are agnostic, in the same way that we are agnostic about everything else. I don't believe that I'm in the Matrix, but there is no way to prove for sure that I am not. I am an agnostic aMatrixist.
Get it?

NooOOOooo.....I have no knowledge of that God that Juppers talks about. There is a possibility that God exists, I have no knowledge that God.

And no I don't get, What is your definition of atheist?
And what is your definition of agnostic?
(04-04-2010 08:03 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  Back to the "No such thing as an atheist" thing? I find it ironic that your response to our disbelief is a disbelief of your own.

Gnosticism deals with knowledge. We go to to isolationism, where we are agnostic towards almost anything. However, if we were to simply accept that yeah, maybe everything around us is an illusion and all our senses are incorrect. Then we would sit there doing nothing because we don't know anything around us exists.

However, we bring in belief now. Belief can be true, and it can be false. It is my belief that my senses are correct, I could be correct, or I could be wrong. Atheism also deals with belief. I don't need a single piece of reason or evidence to believe something is(That is, it's possible to have unsupported belief, but most people prefer to believe what is supported).

I'm an agnostic towards almost everything(Again, getting to absolute truths), but I still hold beliefs along with my agnosticism. Most atheists are agnostics, as Unbeliever has pointed out, and it's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

You do not mean Gnosticism-That is a religion, or maybe you do, please clarify.

A belief to me is a predisposition to ACT like something is true. In college I took a course in Epistemology, very interesting, I suggest it for everyone. I really don't put much weight in beliefs without something to back it up. I think saying that I don't believe God exists and God does not exist are two different things.
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05-04-2010, 12:40 AM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(04-04-2010 10:37 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  You do not mean Gnosticism-That is a religion, or maybe you do, please clarify.

A belief to me is a predisposition to ACT like something is true. In college I took a course in Epistemology, very interesting, I suggest it for everyone. I really don't put much weight in beliefs without something to back it up. I think saying that I don't believe God exists and God does not exist are two different things.

Sorry, spell check does that sometimes. Yes, you take a belief to be true, but it may not be. I can believe a new episode of family guy is on tonight, and I truly believe that and take it as fact, but the new episode shows tomorrow, and that is the truth. "I don't believe God exists" versus "God does not exist" are the same in common speak, but the later does imply a level of certainty that that first doesn't(And shouldn't). I do not say that god doesn't exist, but that I believe god doesn't exist.

To say that I am agnostic in regards to god, that is, I don't know for certain as it is impossible to do, but I'm also an atheist because I have examined the evidence and concluded that the most likely option is that god doesn't exist, which is a belief(Could be correct or incorrect).

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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05-04-2010, 01:19 AM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(04-04-2010 05:21 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Is it possible that there is a God that you have no knowledge of?

I don't rule out the possibility of there being a higher intelligent creative force that might have been involved in the 'making' of the universe. However, I have no proof that there is such a 'being' or 'force' therefore I cannot believe in it. I just thought that, since you are so adamant on believing that there must be a god, then why would you only explore the limited alternatives provided by the existing religions? Why not try to find whomever you think made this world on your own, and not be confined to unverifiable scriptures that cause you to bend and stretch the truth?

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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05-04-2010, 06:20 AM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(04-04-2010 10:37 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  NooOOOooo.....I have no knowledge of that God that Juppers talks about. There is a possibility that God exists, I have no knowledge that God.

You also lack belief in that god.

Quote:And no I don't get, What is your definition of atheist?

One who lacks belief in a god or one who believes that no gods exist.

Quote:And what is your definition of agnostic?

I've said this about five times: an agnostic is one who believes that the truth about something can never be known.

Your problem is that you don't understand the definition of the words you are using. Atheism and theism can't really be compared to gnosticism and agnosticism, as they deal with totally different things. You can be an agnostic theist, an agnostic atheist, a gnostic theist or a gnostic atheist, but you cannot simply be agnostic or gnostic.

So now it's your turn. What is your definition for all these terms?

Quote:You do not mean Gnosticism-That is a religion, or maybe you do, please clarify.

Gnosticism is not a religion. It is the belief that the truth about some matter can be known.

Quote:I think saying that I don't believe God exists and God does not exist are two different things.

They are. What's your point? Both are atheistic positions.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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05-04-2010, 09:57 AM
 
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(05-04-2010 06:20 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-04-2010 10:37 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  NooOOOooo.....I have no knowledge of that God that Juppers talks about. There is a possibility that God exists, I have no knowledge that God.

You also lack belief in that god.

Quote:And no I don't get, What is your definition of atheist?

One who lacks belief in a god or one who believes that no gods exist.

Quote:And what is your definition of agnostic?

I've said this about five times: an agnostic is one who believes that the truth about something can never be known.

Your problem is that you don't understand the definition of the words you are using. Atheism and theism can't really be compared to gnosticism and agnosticism, as they deal with totally different things. You can be an agnostic theist, an agnostic atheist, a gnostic theist or a gnostic atheist, but you cannot simply be agnostic or gnostic.

So now it's your turn. What is your definition for all these terms?

Quote:You do not mean Gnosticism-That is a religion, or maybe you do, please clarify.

Gnosticism is not a religion. It is the belief that the truth about some matter can be known.

Quote:I think saying that I don't believe God exists and God does not exist are two different things.

They are. What's your point? Both are atheistic positions.

Do a search on Gnosticism and tell me it is not a religion, I studied it.
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05-04-2010, 10:05 AM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2010 10:10 AM by Unbeliever.)
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
You don't get it, do you? Gnosticism can be applied to religious belief, as can agnosticism, but it is not in and of itself a religious belief. Gnosticism is the belief that something can be proven to be true. When applied to religion, it is the belief that a god's existence can be proven.
Get it?

EDIT: Also, you ignored the rest of it. Including my question. How do you define all these terms?

Oh, and yes, I know what you're referring to by "gnosticism", which is a religious sect of Christianity which believes that the existence of God can be proven through the process of gnosis. "Can be proven" is the key phrase.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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05-04-2010, 10:25 AM
 
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(05-04-2010 10:05 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You don't get it, do you? Gnosticism can be applied to religious belief, as can agnosticism, but it is not in and of itself a religious belief. Gnosticism is the belief that something can be proven to be true. When applied to religion, it is the belief that a god's existence can be proven.
Get it?

EDIT: Also, you ignored the rest of it. Including my question. How do you define all these terms?

I am trading right now, don't have a lot of time, just checking emails and responding quickly.

You mean Agnosticism I think, Gnosticism is a religion.

"Gnosticism goes back centuries before the Christian era, possibly as early as the fifth Century, B.C. A belief system developed in ancient Syria and Persia that held salvation of the soul could be achieved by attaining a deep, mystic, and divine knowledge. According to their beliefs, humans are divided into a three-tiered hierarchy. Those possessing this knowledge, or gnosis, were a superior form of human being whose present and future destiny were not intertwined with those humans, that, for whatever reason, did not "know." Those humans too influenced by matter were doomed, and somewhere in between were those who did not yet possess the gnosis, but could yet be saved."
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05-04-2010, 10:30 AM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(05-04-2010 10:25 AM)martinb59 Wrote:  You mean Agnosticism I think

No, I don't.

Quote:Gnosticism is a religion.

"Gnosticism goes back centuries before the Christian era, possibly as early as the fifth Century, B.C. A belief system developed in ancient Syria and Persia that held salvation of the soul could be achieved by attaining a deep, mystic, and divine knowledge. According to their beliefs, humans are divided into a three-tiered hierarchy. Those possessing this knowledge, or gnosis, were a superior form of human being whose present and future destiny were not intertwined with those humans, that, for whatever reason, did not "know." Those humans too influenced by matter were doomed, and somewhere in between were those who did not yet possess the gnosis, but could yet be saved."

I said this above. There is a religious sect called Gnosticism. There is also a philosophical stance called gnosticism, which is the opposite of agnosticism.
But we're getting off track here. My point is that you are equivocating between two different definitions of agnosticism: the philosophical stance which states that something cannot be proven or disproven, and your - still undefined - version.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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05-04-2010, 02:47 PM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
Martin,

Gnosticism is a religious belief, but it also has a separate, abstract meaning. We are talking about the abstract meaning right now. I will try to not use it since it seems to be confusing you. This argument is completely stupid and pointless, and I would like to get into something real. So how about I just don't use the term "Gnostic" and we can continue on the original point?

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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