How much do I have to hate you?
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05-04-2010, 03:05 PM
 
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(05-04-2010 01:19 AM)Juppers Wrote:  
(04-04-2010 05:21 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Is it possible that there is a God that you have no knowledge of?

I don't rule out the possibility of there being a higher intelligent creative force that might have been involved in the 'making' of the universe. However, I have no proof that there is such a 'being' or 'force' therefore I cannot believe in it. I just thought that, since you are so adamant on believing that there must be a god, then why would you only explore the limited alternatives provided by the existing religions? Why not try to find whomever you think made this world on your own, and not be confined to unverifiable scriptures that cause you to bend and stretch the truth?

"and not be confined to unverifiable scriptures that cause you to bend and stretch the truth?" You believe that I don't.

How would you suggest I find this God that no one has knowledge of and who hasn't made himself known?
(05-04-2010 10:05 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You don't get it, do you? Gnosticism can be applied to religious belief, as can agnosticism, but it is not in and of itself a religious belief. Gnosticism is the belief that something can be proven to be true. When applied to religion, it is the belief that a god's existence can be proven.
Get it?

EDIT: Also, you ignored the rest of it. Including my question. How do you define all these terms?

Oh, and yes, I know what you're referring to by "gnosticism", which is a religious sect of Christianity which believes that the existence of God can be proven through the process of gnosis. "Can be proven" is the key phrase.

You will never admit to be wrong, I don't care if you can some group that claims Gnosticism and psychology, if there is one, Gnosticism is a religion that still has churches today. Enough of that subject, I would tell people who are interested to research it and find out for themselves.

An atheist is making a definite pronouncement; that there is no God. The Greek root words support this with a literal meaning of “without god” or “denying god.” Actually it is “Atheos”. You can throw the words “I Believe” in front of “there is no God”, and say ‘This is my belief, that there is no God”, and now get away from the burden of proof but I think that is a misapplication of the word. And because “Wikipedia” or the like puts the word “Belief” in there does not make it right or the way the word was intended to be used. Since there is no way of proving God doesn’t exist, you cannot make the truth claim that you are an Atheist.

When I studied Huxley (he coined the term Agnostic), I agreed with a number of things he said, one of those things was “Only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge”. And so he came up with the word Agnostic. The word knowledge deals with facts and truths, no “belief”.

That is why I say there is no such thing as an Atheist. An atheist makes the claim there is no God, and that can’t be known. Unless you take the cop out route and say “I believe there is no God”. The agnostic says I have no knowledge of God or that a God even exists, and that is a true statement.
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05-04-2010, 04:53 PM
 
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(03-04-2010 05:41 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  
(03-04-2010 05:27 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(03-04-2010 05:14 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Wow Martin. Way to avoid answering just about everything! LOL. Is it so scary to you, that you are incapable of admitting you just don't have all the answers?

Do you see how many questions I have to respond to? Plus private emails from this site. So many of them are so ridiculous that I don't want to waste my time. I got an email from a person on this site today that says prayer does not work. He or she assumes that prayers have to have an instant answer and prayers travel at the speed of light so for that to happen God would have to be on the moon because that is the only distance that would work. I am not responding to something so stupid and that person like others will assume they "Got Me" because I don't answer.

I tried to go one on one with Super about contradictions, mine and the Bible. So far he has not responded, if you would like to tackle that or any other topic one on one I will be more than happy to do it.

My new tack is to ask the person what proof they need for me to provide to prove a point but I am not going to spend 30 minutes on an email only to have Unbeliever say "no it doesn't" as a response.

Perhaps then, you will consider this a fair question worthy of an answer. And I really don't intend sarcasm...Why did you come back to this site? Seriously. Do you feel it is your duty to try to convince atheists that they are going to hell? That they need to worship god to get into heaven? Is it that you just like to argue? You have yet to truly credit anyone here as being a worthy adversary for you to debate with (at least not that I've seen, please correct me if I'm wrong), so why bother debating at all unless you have ulterior motives? Please, do share.

I came back to this site because I received a few emails saying they missed the discussion. I missed it also, although I wish there was a better way of discussing these topics. I have never said anyone is "going to hell", "that they need to worship God to get into Heaven" etc.

I have never said there were no worthy adversaries, but I think a number of positions lack thought. I was thinking about making another account and asking me questions, but I decided against that. If I had a motive it would be to see how people in today's internet age, process and acquire their knowledge on this subject. Makes me sound old, which I guess I am, the first computer I worked on was an Apple Lisa around 1983, but my first computer was a Macintosh around the middle of 1984. The first real internet experience that I remember was June of 1994 when OJ Simpson was accused of murdering Nicole. I was on a mac laptop laying in bed, with a dial up modem, downloading Nicole's drivers license from AOL. I turned to my wife and said "this is what the computer was meant to do", for the first time I was getting information that I didn't put in the computer.

What I see, is people who "Believe" they are thinking critically but in reality just downloading stuff from the web without much thought behind what they write, they copy and paste, or get it from Wikipedia, "Although the policies of the Wikipedia strongly espouse verifiability and a neutral point of view, critics of Wikipedia accuse it of systemic bias and inconsistencies (including undue weight given to popular culture),[10] and allege that it favors consensus over credentials in its editorial process.[11] Its reliability and accuracy are also targeted.[12] Other criticisms center on its susceptibility to vandalism and the addition of spurious or unverified information" That was from Wikipedia on Wikipedia. So far it seems that ease of access to information has removed the critical thinking that most on this this site think they have. In the old days we had to go to a book, that book had to be published, publishers would do research because their name was on it, it had to be financed, someone had to buy it. Now I can put whatever I want on the internet with a fancy page and people can copy and paste and they have the same credibility as anyone.
(05-04-2010 06:20 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-04-2010 10:37 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  NooOOOooo.....I have no knowledge of that God that Juppers talks about. There is a possibility that God exists, I have no knowledge that God.

You also lack belief in that god.

Quote:And no I don't get, What is your definition of atheist?

One who lacks belief in a god or one who believes that no gods exist.

Quote:And what is your definition of agnostic?

I've said this about five times: an agnostic is one who believes that the truth about something can never be known.

Your problem is that you don't understand the definition of the words you are using. Atheism and theism can't really be compared to gnosticism and agnosticism, as they deal with totally different things. You can be an agnostic theist, an agnostic atheist, a gnostic theist or a gnostic atheist, but you cannot simply be agnostic or gnostic.

So now it's your turn. What is your definition for all these terms?

Quote:You do not mean Gnosticism-That is a religion, or maybe you do, please clarify.

Gnosticism is not a religion. It is the belief tI've said this about five times: an agnostic is one who believes that the truth about something can never be known.

Quote:I think saying that I don't believe God exists and God does not exist are two different things.

They are. What's your point? Both are atheistic positions.

"I've said this about five times: an agnostic is one who believes that the truth about something can never be known." Please site where you get your definition of Agnostic being someone "that the truth about something can never be known." But you put "believes" so I guess you can write anything you want, without regard to truth because you put "believes" in there.
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05-04-2010, 05:34 PM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(05-04-2010 04:53 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  What I see, is people who "Believe" they are thinking critically but in reality just downloading stuff from the web without much thought behind what they write, they copy and paste, or get it from Wikipedia

And where do you see this?

Quote:"I've said this about five times: an agnostic is one who believes that the truth about something can never be known." Please site where you get your definition of Agnostic being someone "that the truth about something can never be known."

Here. Read for yourself. If you want to take a philosophy course at some point, it is defined this way in most textbooks as well - it was in my last course.

Quote:But you put "believes" so I guess you can write anything you want, without regard to truth because you put "believes" in there.

Total non sequitur much? We're talking about the definition of a word, not what I believe.

(05-04-2010 03:05 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  You will never admit to be wrong

Total bollocks.

Quote:I don't care if you can some group that claims Gnosticism and psychology, if there is one

What? This is gibberish.

Quote:Gnosticism is a religion that still has churches today.

Both ashley.hunt60 and I explained this to you. What does it take to make you understand? There is Gnosticism the religious sect, and then there is gnosticism the philosophy. Why can you not grasp this simple fact?

Quote:An atheist is making a definite pronouncement; that there is no God.

No. An atheist is one who either lacks belief in a god or believes that no gods exist. Why can you not understand this?

Quote:You can throw the words “I Believe” in front of “there is no God”, and say ‘This is my belief, that there is no God”, and now get away from the burden of proof but I think that is a misapplication of the word.

No one has done this. It is simply a fact that the burden of proof is on the theists, not the atheists. Your whining will not change it, and your strawmanning will not either.

Quote:And because “Wikipedia” or the like puts the word “Belief” in there does not make it right or the way the word was intended to be used.

So your argument is that, essentially, you get to define what "atheism" means rather than, oh, I don't know, the dictionary. Real convincing. Since no atheist fits your straw man definition of the word, there are no atheists.
Nice.

Quote:Since there is no way of proving God doesn’t exist, you cannot make the truth claim that you are an Atheist.

You cannot prove that your god exists. You cannot make the truth claim that you are a theist.
There. I just proved that there is no such thing as a theist.

Quote:That is why I say there is no such thing as an Atheist. An atheist makes the claim there is no God, and that can’t be known. Unless you take the cop out route and say “I believe there is no God”. The agnostic says I have no knowledge of God or that a God even exists, and that is a true statement.

Try actually reading a dictionary. You are strawmanning both terms horribly and have repeatedly failed to grasp that your "definitions" are way off the mark. That no one is able to disprove the existence of a god does not mean that there can be no atheists, and you are simply being childish when you resort to this repetition rather than defense of your position.
You have been defeated, martin. Atheists exist. Why do you not admit this? Is it really that damaging to your faith? Or is it simply that you are too egotistical to ever admit that you were wrong about anything?

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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05-04-2010, 06:28 PM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
Martin,

You've commented that atheism is someone who says they know for a fact that god doesn't exist, as is the original meaning of the word. I'm going to take your word for it, I don't want to look it up as it is completely pointless if that is what it meant a couple thousands years ago. I know you hate this word, but language evolves, and that is not it's current meaning. Our society recognizes atheism as someone who doesn't believe in god.

But if you are so horribly appalled at the concept that words change, what do you want to call us? Most of us are agnostics, but we are more than that. I'm an atheist agnostic, but if you take such offense to atheist, what would be your substitution? What word in you vocabulary means someone who believes there is no god? Keep in mind agnosticism doesn't cut it, agnosticism doesn't mean we don't believe in god, it means that god's existence can never be known for certain, and theists can be agnostics too.

So, if not atheists, then what?

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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05-04-2010, 07:21 PM
 
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
Agnostic was first used in 1870, Atheos was used at least before 3rd century AD.

People! look at the words you use, I didn't say I was appalled like Super did in one of his posts, I didn't say I hate the word atheist, I am questioning what you call yourselves. This is the Thinking Atheist Site after all. I call you agnostic.
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05-04-2010, 08:09 PM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(05-04-2010 07:21 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Agnostic was first used in 1870, Atheos was used at least before 3rd century AD.

People! look at the words you use, I didn't say I was appalled like Super did in one of his posts, I didn't say I hate the word atheist, I am questioning what you call yourselves. This is the Thinking Atheist Site after all. I call you agnostic.

And we're telling you that your definitions are wrong.

This is not a hard concept to grasp.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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05-04-2010, 08:10 PM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
The point is, atheist is the recognized term for someone without the belief in god. Most of us are agnostics, since we agree god can never be proven one way or the other, but I've never met someone who is just agnostic. You can say that god can never be proven, but if you are thinking that deeply, you will probably try to take a guess at if god does or doesn't exist. This determines atheist/theism.

We call ourselves atheists, because that is the word for it. What is the point of calling ourselves something that no one else shares our definition with? Completely and utterly misses the point of a language. I am an agnostic, and an atheist.

The common definition for atheism, the definition that most people do by, is a lack of belief in a god. Agnostic simply doesn't cover that. I lack a belief in a god, that isn't what agnosticism means, the best word is atheism, and so that is the word in use. Again, what is the point of using a word that only you know the meaning of?

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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05-04-2010, 08:49 PM
 
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
"A" or "an" as a prefix simply means "without." Just as the term "polytheist" means many theistic figures (or gods), and "monotheist" means one theistic figure (or god), "Atheist" simply means without theistic figures or gods.

It simply denotes someone who is without theism, just as anhydrous means without water. To make a slightly "tongue-twisting" comparison, apolytheist would mean someone without polytheism. Both monotheists and Atheists would be apolytheists.

The word in itself makes no claim as to whether or not the person is attempting to prove the negative argument in regards to theistic figures. Most of us know this is impossible, as it would require proving a universal negative. As theism is defined as the belief in the existence of a god or gods (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theist), an Atheist is someone without that belief--not necessarily someone attempting to disprove that belief or even someone who is aware of it, simply someone without it.
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