How to Handle Conflicting Ideals
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26-06-2012, 08:31 PM
How to Handle Conflicting Ideals
This may be discussed in another thread, but there are really too many to try and find a similar posting.
I consider myself to be a libertarian. In general, I feel there should be limited government involvement in our lives, specifically federal government. I am an atheist (of course). I support the right to bear arms. I am pro-choice. I support gay marriage. I am fiscally conservative. Sometimes I feel like a complete contradiction in beliefs. I have never felt like there is a candidate that would actually represent me.
I am just interested to hear if there are others out there like me?!? If so, how do you handle what the republicans and democrats would classify as conflicting ideals? Because I tend to weigh fiscal issues over social, I often find myself leaning toward republicans as far as voting; however, it becomes extremely difficult when religion starts to seep into decisions that are being made. I have come to the point so many times where I just don't care anymore and want to give up on all of them. I am still fairly young and don't want to become completely disillusioned. Any suggestions? Thoughts? Are there any specific authors that discuss these types of things that anyone would recommend?
Meridith

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26-06-2012, 08:49 PM
RE: How to Handle Conflicting Ideals
My friend, I would suggest you get on board with a third party and start advocating for the acceptance of third parties into our political culture. Candidates you support may never get elected, but it can sway popular opinion. Also, I would advise you to continually study on issues that interest you which in your case you say are the fiscal issues. Spending isn't inherently bad, just in today's system we tend to place a higher value on things that are unnecessary (military industrial complex) and less on things that would benefit us (healthcare, technology).

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26-06-2012, 09:34 PM
RE: How to Handle Conflicting Ideals
Ah you sound exactly like me, a right wing libertarian. Liberal social views but fiscally conservative.
And yea I know what you mean, politically parties are often all liberal or all conservative, never seems to be one for us RWL's. Probably because there's not very many of us.
Our politics here are very different to American politics. I vote for a right wing party, some would consider conservative, and violently hate the liberal party. Here our parties are more business v people. National (business) favor a strong economy and often pass legislation that some would consider favoritism towards business. Where as Labor (people) favor social welfare and are very much for lower/average income families.

So like you I value fiscal responsibility over social issues for my government, so I vote National. However unlike you, here I am satisfied with our current social stances on things. America is very different, I'd vote for the Democrats just because the social element of it is so different that it trumps economical. I'd rather have a slightly slower economy and good social reforms then a fast growth economy and some Christian ruled party ruling the country. So in some regard I'm kinda lucky I don't have your choice.
But if you asked me if I was you who would I vote for? I'd vote democrats. Lesser of two evils in your situation.


ps: Yes I know nobody cares about NZ politics but I could talk about it all day so stfu. Smile

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26-06-2012, 10:49 PM
RE: How to Handle Conflicting Ideals
(26-06-2012 08:31 PM)mhall61582 Wrote:  This may be discussed in another thread, but there are really too many to try and find a similar posting.
I consider myself to be a libertarian. In general, I feel there should be limited government involvement in our lives, specifically federal government. I am an atheist (of course). I support the right to bear arms. I am pro-choice. I support gay marriage. I am fiscally conservative. Sometimes I feel like a complete contradiction in beliefs. I have never felt like there is a candidate that would actually represent me.
I am just interested to hear if there are others out there like me?!? If so, how do you handle what the republicans and democrats would classify as conflicting ideals? Because I tend to weigh fiscal issues over social, I often find myself leaning toward republicans as far as voting; however, it becomes extremely difficult when religion starts to seep into decisions that are being made. I have come to the point so many times where I just don't care anymore and want to give up on all of them. I am still fairly young and don't want to become completely disillusioned. Any suggestions? Thoughts? Are there any specific authors that discuss these types of things that anyone would recommend?
Meridith
That's pretty much the same view as me, and I also tend to lean GOP over fiscal issues. But I also don't blindly vote the party. There's another recent thread that kind of touches on the third party issue here: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ction-Poll

I'm from Wisconsin, I voted for Walker, and I supported the public employee union reforms. However I also was a Feingold supporter over his strong record on civil rights and was disappointed to see him go. You can't really get more politically polar opposite than those two candidates.

There are more of us than the media likes to report. The GOP has a strong but vocal and active social conservative faction that has gotten its way. Since the days of Goldwater, there has always been an equally numerous group of libertarian leaning GOPers, but it took the fiscal crisis to get them out front and more active in the party.

Reason magazine (http://www.reason.com) writes a lot about conservative-libertarian concerns. There are also popular blogs like Instapundit, Althouse, and AllahPundit (one of two primary contributors at HotAir).

Libertarianism these days is pretty active within the GOP. I suspect if Ron Paul didn't have some suspicious associations with racists and otherwise a crackpot-ish record in Congress, we would have really seen a more contentious primary in the GOP this year. The Tea Party has a decidedly libertarian bent to it--though the social cons are coopting it to also push the usual fair of abortion/god/gays. Rand Paul in the Senate has a bit less baggage than his father and seems to be doing a decent job of pushing libertarian issues in a way that gets more support than only his own vote (as Ron Paul plays out in a farcical way being the lone voter on issue after issue in the House).
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27-06-2012, 09:00 AM
RE: How to Handle Conflicting Ideals
(26-06-2012 08:31 PM)mhall61582 Wrote:  This may be discussed in another thread, but there are really too many to try and find a similar posting.
I consider myself to be a libertarian. In general, I feel there should be limited government involvement in our lives, specifically federal government. I am an atheist (of course). I support the right to bear arms. I am pro-choice. I support gay marriage. I am fiscally conservative. Sometimes I feel like a complete contradiction in beliefs. I have never felt like there is a candidate that would actually represent me.
I am just interested to hear if there are others out there like me?!? If so, how do you handle what the republicans and democrats would classify as conflicting ideals? Because I tend to weigh fiscal issues over social, I often find myself leaning toward republicans as far as voting; however, it becomes extremely difficult when religion starts to seep into decisions that are being made. I have come to the point so many times where I just don't care anymore and want to give up on all of them. I am still fairly young and don't want to become completely disillusioned. Any suggestions? Thoughts? Are there any specific authors that discuss these types of things that anyone would recommend?
Meridith


Glald to see there are a few of us here. I tend to lean towards the GOP on fiscal issues but socially I tend towards the Democrats (really it's just the 2nd Amendment we differ on). The average Republican would not like to admit this but back in the day approximately 80% of the GOP was pro-choice, then the deluge. Some of us woke up in a party suddenly filled with a bunch of glassy eyed, mouth breathing, zombies that decry the role of government in their lives and in the next breath proposed a slew of restrictions on others. I would probably be descirbed as a lef leaning libertarian.

Despite his religious leaning, William F Buckley was one of my favorite conservative authors.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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27-06-2012, 10:41 AM
RE: How to Handle Conflicting Ideals
(27-06-2012 09:00 AM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  
(26-06-2012 08:31 PM)mhall61582 Wrote:  This may be discussed in another thread, but there are really too many to try and find a similar posting.
I consider myself to be a libertarian. In general, I feel there should be limited government involvement in our lives, specifically federal government. I am an atheist (of course). I support the right to bear arms. I am pro-choice. I support gay marriage. I am fiscally conservative. Sometimes I feel like a complete contradiction in beliefs. I have never felt like there is a candidate that would actually represent me.
I am just interested to hear if there are others out there like me?!? If so, how do you handle what the republicans and democrats would classify as conflicting ideals? Because I tend to weigh fiscal issues over social, I often find myself leaning toward republicans as far as voting; however, it becomes extremely difficult when religion starts to seep into decisions that are being made. I have come to the point so many times where I just don't care anymore and want to give up on all of them. I am still fairly young and don't want to become completely disillusioned. Any suggestions? Thoughts? Are there any specific authors that discuss these types of things that anyone would recommend?
Meridith


Glald to see there are a few of us here. I tend to lean towards the GOP on fiscal issues but socially I tend towards the Democrats (really it's just the 2nd Amendment we differ on). The average Republican would not like to admit this but back in the day approximately 80% of the GOP was pro-choice, then the deluge. Some of us woke up in a party suddenly filled with a bunch of glassy eyed, mouth breathing, zombies that decry the role of government in their lives and in the next breath proposed a slew of restrictions on others. I would probably be descirbed as a lef leaning libertarian.

Despite his religious leaning, William F Buckley was one of my favorite conservative authors.
Are you saying you just have some similar political ideals as he did or that you admire the man himself? He has a little bit more baggage than solely religious leaning.

"A man who dares waste an hour of his life has not discovered the value of life." - Charles Darwin
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27-06-2012, 11:00 AM
RE: How to Handle Conflicting Ideals
(27-06-2012 10:41 AM)HDT Wrote:  
(27-06-2012 09:00 AM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  Glald to see there are a few of us here. I tend to lean towards the GOP on fiscal issues but socially I tend towards the Democrats (really it's just the 2nd Amendment we differ on). The average Republican would not like to admit this but back in the day approximately 80% of the GOP was pro-choice, then the deluge. Some of us woke up in a party suddenly filled with a bunch of glassy eyed, mouth breathing, zombies that decry the role of government in their lives and in the next breath proposed a slew of restrictions on others. I would probably be descirbed as a lef leaning libertarian.

Despite his religious leaning, William F Buckley was one of my favorite conservative authors.
Are you saying you just have some similar political ideals as he did or that you admire the man himself? He has a little bit more baggage than solely religious leaning.



Some similar. I grew up on Firing Line and learned a lot about debate from him. Also introduced me to Hitchens and for that I'm very greatful.

By baggage what are you referring to?

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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27-06-2012, 11:50 AM
RE: How to Handle Conflicting Ideals
(26-06-2012 08:31 PM)mhall61582 Wrote:  This may be discussed in another thread, but there are really too many to try and find a similar posting.
I consider myself to be a libertarian. In general, I feel there should be limited government involvement in our lives, specifically federal government. I am an atheist (of course). I support the right to bear arms. I am pro-choice. I support gay marriage. I am fiscally conservative. Sometimes I feel like a complete contradiction in beliefs. I have never felt like there is a candidate that would actually represent me.
I am just interested to hear if there are others out there like me?!? If so, how do you handle what the republicans and democrats would classify as conflicting ideals? Because I tend to weigh fiscal issues over social, I often find myself leaning toward republicans as far as voting; however, it becomes extremely difficult when religion starts to seep into decisions that are being made. I have come to the point so many times where I just don't care anymore and want to give up on all of them. I am still fairly young and don't want to become completely disillusioned. Any suggestions? Thoughts? Are there any specific authors that discuss these types of things that anyone would recommend?
Meridith
Your beliefs do not self-conflict, they are not inconsistent.

They only conflict as a set with the sets of beliefs of, say, the Democrats or Republicans. I dare say that many people on this board generally share your stated set of beliefs.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-06-2012, 12:23 PM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2012 12:47 PM by HDT.)
RE: How to Handle Conflicting Ideals
(27-06-2012 11:00 AM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  
(27-06-2012 10:41 AM)HDT Wrote:  Are you saying you just have some similar political ideals as he did or that you admire the man himself? He has a little bit more baggage than solely religious leaning.



Some similar. I grew up on Firing Line and learned a lot about debate from him. Also introduced me to Hitchens and for that I'm very greatful.

By baggage what are you referring to?
I was just curious as to how far you went. Firing Lane has certainly introduced the world to many, many good debates and interesting POVs. I personally do not agree with many of his positions, but that's just me.

I do not mean to be condescending, to me his staunch anti-communism just seemed to border McCarthynism and the John Birch Society at times, including his book which defended McCarthy. Although he later denounced the John Birch Society and said the GOP should rid itself of the ranks of them.

EDIT: I should add that I was going to mention his support for white supremacy and segregationist policies in the South during the 1950s, but it seems that I was pleasantly surprised to read that he recanted what he said and clarified to a degree his intentions. While I don't fully agree with what his position, it was not the completely despicable position of the George Wallace's of the time and I was under the wrong impression there.

"A man who dares waste an hour of his life has not discovered the value of life." - Charles Darwin
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27-06-2012, 02:29 PM
RE: How to Handle Conflicting Ideals
(27-06-2012 12:23 PM)HDT Wrote:  
(27-06-2012 11:00 AM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  Some similar. I grew up on Firing Line and learned a lot about debate from him. Also introduced me to Hitchens and for that I'm very greatful.

By baggage what are you referring to?

I was just curious as to how far you went. Firing Lane has certainly introduced the world to many, many good debates and interesting POVs. I personally do not agree with many of his positions, but that's just me.

I do not mean to be condescending, to me his staunch anti-communism just seemed to border McCarthynism and the John Birch Society at times, including his book which defended McCarthy. Although he later denounced the John Birch Society and said the GOP should rid itself of the ranks of them.

EDIT: I should add that I was going to mention his support for white supremacy and segregationist policies in the South during the 1950s, but it seems that I was pleasantly surprised to read that he recanted what he said and clarified to a degree his intentions. While I don't fully agree with what his position, it was not the completely despicable position of the George Wallace's of the time and I was under the wrong impression there.


Fair enough - Well, the JBS is just plain crazy, McCarthy, the same and as I see it a witch hunting moron that made a mockery of the constitution and cannot condone/excuse/accept defense of him. Buckley did get me thinking about politics, fiscal policy and to some extent religion. I think a lot of people in that time period had to reexamine thier stance on race and face the fact that they were for the lack of a better term, stupid. Thanks for the input!

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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