How to convert True Scotsman
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22-06-2014, 11:18 AM
How to convert True Scotsman
OK. I'm tired of all the CRRAP I get (continuous resurrection of refuted arguments and premises). It gets really tiresome to refute the same old arguments over and over and over so I am going to take a different tack. From now on I'm going to tell those who are trying to convince me exactly how to do it. Let's cut to the chase, this is what you have to do to convince me.

You have to prove to me that the universe is subjective. What I mean by that is that consciousness has primacy over existence. This means that the universe and everything in it conforms to some form of consciousness, that things are not what they are independent of consciousness. That A is not A.

This is the antithesis of what I hold. My whole worldview is predicated on the fact that existence holds primacy over consciousness. That the universe is objective and that things are what they are independent of any consciousness. This is the view that the subject of consciousness has to conform to its objects and not the other way around. That A is A regardless of anyone's wishes, feelings, dreams, hopes, fears, faith or tantrums.

If you could prove that the universe is subjective then that would necessitate an all powerful consciousness that created, maintains and could change any aspect of it at will. It would have to be omniscient as well because our finite consciousness is not all knowing enough to create all this.

Now I have some ground rules. I want objective proof. You can't use the bible or any sacred text because I would have to take it on faith. You can't use feelings or personal anecdotes either because those are subjective. I want objective, empirically verifiable proof. I want you to prove to me that existence is subjective regardless of what anyone wants, likes, dislikes, favors, wishes, dreams, demands or prefers. That's the only way I'll accept that the subjective nature of existence is absolutely true.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-06-2014, 11:59 AM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
Since I saw your argument posted on another thread (actually I bookmarked it) I've been looking for ways to counter it.

I've failed.

The best I've got is... "How do you know?".

Meaning that a consciousness could have made it look like existence is to be presupposed... like a god placing dino-fossils in just the right places.

Problem then, of course, is that this consciousness cannot pre-exist.

I think you make a sound and valid argument.

Bowing

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22-06-2014, 12:19 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(22-06-2014 11:18 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  OK. I'm tired of all the CRRAP I get (continuous resurrection of refuted arguments and premises). It gets really tiresome to refute the same old arguments over and over and over so I am going to take a different tack. From now on I'm going to tell those who are trying to convince me exactly how to do it. Let's cut to the chase, this is what you have to do to convince me.

You have to prove to me that the universe is subjective. What I mean by that is that consciousness has primacy over existence. This means that the universe and everything in it conforms to some form of consciousness, that things are not what they are independent of consciousness. That A is not A.

This is the antithesis of what I hold. My whole worldview is predicated on the fact that existence holds primacy over consciousness. That the universe is objective and that things are what they are independent of any consciousness. This is the view that the subject of consciousness has to conform to its objects and not the other way around. That A is A regardless of anyone's wishes, feelings, dreams, hopes, fears, faith or tantrums.

If you could prove that the universe is subjective then that would necessitate an all powerful consciousness that created, maintains and could change any aspect of it at will. It would have to be omniscient as well because our finite consciousness is not all knowing enough to create all this.

Now I have some ground rules. I want objective proof. You can't use the bible or any sacred text because I would have to take it on faith. You can't use feelings or personal anecdotes either because those are subjective. I want objective, empirically verifiable proof. I want you to prove to me that existence is subjective regardless of what anyone wants, likes, dislikes, favors, wishes, dreams, demands or prefers. That's the only way I'll accept that the subjective nature of existence is absolutely true.

No, true scotsman; they won't abide by the rules. No

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-06-2014, 12:39 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(22-06-2014 12:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-06-2014 11:18 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  OK. I'm tired of all the CRRAP I get (continuous resurrection of refuted arguments and premises). It gets really tiresome to refute the same old arguments over and over and over so I am going to take a different tack. From now on I'm going to tell those who are trying to convince me exactly how to do it. Let's cut to the chase, this is what you have to do to convince me.

You have to prove to me that the universe is subjective. What I mean by that is that consciousness has primacy over existence. This means that the universe and everything in it conforms to some form of consciousness, that things are not what they are independent of consciousness. That A is not A.

This is the antithesis of what I hold. My whole worldview is predicated on the fact that existence holds primacy over consciousness. That the universe is objective and that things are what they are independent of any consciousness. This is the view that the subject of consciousness has to conform to its objects and not the other way around. That A is A regardless of anyone's wishes, feelings, dreams, hopes, fears, faith or tantrums.

If you could prove that the universe is subjective then that would necessitate an all powerful consciousness that created, maintains and could change any aspect of it at will. It would have to be omniscient as well because our finite consciousness is not all knowing enough to create all this.

Now I have some ground rules. I want objective proof. You can't use the bible or any sacred text because I would have to take it on faith. You can't use feelings or personal anecdotes either because those are subjective. I want objective, empirically verifiable proof. I want you to prove to me that existence is subjective regardless of what anyone wants, likes, dislikes, favors, wishes, dreams, demands or prefers. That's the only way I'll accept that the subjective nature of existence is absolutely true.

No, true scotsman; they won't abide by the rules. No

I know it but at least it will be something different and it will plant a brush fire of reason in the old brain pan.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-06-2014, 12:43 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(22-06-2014 11:59 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Since I saw your argument posted on another thread (actually I bookmarked it) I've been looking for ways to counter it.

I've failed.

The best I've got is... "How do you know?".

Meaning that a consciousness could have made it look like existence is to be presupposed... like a god placing dino-fossils in just the right places.

Problem then, of course, is that this consciousness cannot pre-exist.

I think you make a sound and valid argument.

Bowing

I don't think it can be countered. It's enemies will have to accept its premises and use them in any attempt to refute them. Of course I always get "it's just Human logic".

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-06-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(22-06-2014 12:43 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  ...
Of course I always get "it's just Human logic".

Huh

As opposed to Vulcan logic?

Or deistic logic?

So how does that work?

Wink

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22-06-2014, 03:20 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(22-06-2014 03:14 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(22-06-2014 12:43 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  ...
Of course I always get "it's just Human logic".
---
--
- deistic logic?

So how does that work?

Wink

Certainly you've heard: Mysterious Ways. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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22-06-2014, 05:03 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(22-06-2014 03:14 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(22-06-2014 12:43 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  ...
Of course I always get "it's just Human logic".

Huh

As opposed to Vulcan logic?

Or deistic logic?

So how does that work?

Wink

I haven't quite figured that out yet. What other kind of logic is there? What kind do they use? They are usually vague on the subject.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-06-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(22-06-2014 03:20 PM)kim Wrote:  
(22-06-2014 03:14 PM)DLJ Wrote:  ---
--
- deistic logic?

So how does that work?

Wink

Certainly you've heard: Mysterious Ways. Wink

Oh yes, that's a classic.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-06-2014, 05:09 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
Well, you can't prove that the universe isn't subjective.


Checkmate atheists. Drinking Beverage

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