How to convert True Scotsman
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23-06-2014, 12:53 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(23-06-2014 06:21 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 02:00 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  You know, TS, I've recently had cause to ponder the distinction between a reasonable demand and a realistic one.

In this thread, you have produced a reasonable demand. You have stated your standard of evidence for a particular claim, and then challenged those who are attempting to persuade you of that claim to meet that standard, or at least recognize that this is the goal to aim for. Alas, this is not a realistic demand.

Also, I can't help but think that your standard is too weak. It's not hard to construct a model of a plausible universe which does NOT require some sort of divine overlord. Subjectivity does not in itself imply God.

It is neither reasonable or realistic. That was the whole point of the thread. Look the claim of the Christian God or any other God if it has the ability to create, maintain and alter reality by an act of conscious will affirms a primacy of consciousness metaphysics. The concepts objective, truth, argument, logic and every other concept having to do with knowledge depend on existence having primacy. So people who claim that god exists as a fact of reality, not just in their imagination, are saying existence exists independently from consciousness and there also exists this consciousness upon which existence depends. A is A and A is not A at the same time. It's impossible. Just like asking for objective proof that the universe is subjective is a contradictory statement.

Oh, I'll agree that subjectivity is necessary consequence of a theistic God exercising its powers. I'm just saying that subjectivity is not SUFFICIENT to conclude that there's a theistic God exercising its powers. There could be other explanations, and thus more evidence would be required to narrow the culprit down to God.
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23-06-2014, 02:16 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(23-06-2014 12:53 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 06:21 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  It is neither reasonable or realistic. That was the whole point of the thread. Look the claim of the Christian God or any other God if it has the ability to create, maintain and alter reality by an act of conscious will affirms a primacy of consciousness metaphysics. The concepts objective, truth, argument, logic and every other concept having to do with knowledge depend on existence having primacy. So people who claim that god exists as a fact of reality, not just in their imagination, are saying existence exists independently from consciousness and there also exists this consciousness upon which existence depends. A is A and A is not A at the same time. It's impossible. Just like asking for objective proof that the universe is subjective is a contradictory statement.

Oh, I'll agree that subjectivity is necessary consequence of a theistic God exercising its powers. I'm just saying that subjectivity is not SUFFICIENT to conclude that there's a theistic God exercising its powers. There could be other explanations, and thus more evidence would be required to narrow the culprit down to God.

I see what you mean. I guess also in a subjective universe there could be multiple true answers. I mainly want to get them to try convince me so that they will hopefully see the glaring contradiction involved in their god belief.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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23-06-2014, 02:51 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(23-06-2014 02:10 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 01:12 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  ... Does that mean light still exists? No of course not ...

You appear to be saying that without eyeballs to detect it, a range of electromagnetic radiation wavelength wouldn't exist. My (admittedly thin) knowledge of early cosmology is that there was a period of millions of years immediately after the Big Bang where radiation in the visible light spectrum saturated the young universe well before such structures as dust, let alone planets with eyeballed living organisms on them, could form.

I know there's an argument that the tree falling in the earless forest makes no sound because there's nothing to transduce the vibrating air into a neural sensation, but the tree has still fallen. A state of existence has shifted to another state, still extant. So I can't make sense of your assertion. Did I misunderstand it?

Yes, a sound is only a sound unless something can hear it. That is why we call it sound.

(23-06-2014 06:11 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 01:12 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Yes, yes it does.

Consciousness is 100% of what makes existence. You are confusing fantasy and reality and using straw men to boast your argument.

We exist and we know we exist BECAUSE we can think. Because we can feel and have emotion and have consciousness.

The universe happened. Then stuff happened in-between. However, If we never existed to begin with you could not possibly make this statement. Non of us could. There would be no point.

Let me give you an example of what the difference between something that exists and something that does not exist actually means.

Existence is perceptual. Perception can be anything from Seeing, smelling, hearing and one thing that people never seem to get right about it that you are confused about yourself.

Is thought!

A blind species cannot THINK about neutrinos because it never SAW LIGHT to begin with. It cannot. It cannot develop the idea, the technology or anything that would even come close to what light is. Does that mean light still exists? No of course not.
Not unless there is "something" around to see it and know it exists. So that thought can register it as a possibility.

Now, if I were to tell you that there was a planet in our universe where the characters from My little Pony Friendship is magic existed. You are the kind of person who would believe in this sort of thing.

Why? Because it just does exist.

Hey! if the universe still exists, even if we do not exist or existed in the first place. Thinking like that can lead you to believe anything based on the fact that we never seen it therefor god. lol.

So, there is another universe where I am married to Pinky Pie. A planet with another me who is the queen of cheese sandwich island and I just made a decree that everyone must take harmonica lessons.

The one and only reason you can possibly even think that the universe exists because we are not here to perceive it is because we DO exist and have already perceived it to have existed before us.

Therefor, because we know it existed before. It makes any argument about this mute. If we never existed to begin with than the universe itself does not exist unless there is someone else out there that can confirm it.

We ARE the universe, and the universe is we. If the universe cannot perceive itself as being here. Then it neither exists; nor, does it even matter if it does or not.

Just like a dimention of mlp characters being real actually existing or not actually matter. It don't, They do not exist until they pop on over to our world and say hello. Just like WE do not exist to them.

OK.

Wow.

While you are wishing a bar of gold for yourself, wish one to appear on my desk as well. When it does we'll talk about whether "consciousness is 100% of what makes existence".


STRAWMAN

Again, When did I ever say just because we wish something to exist it does.

My argument is reality is 100% subjective. We exist because we...can...THINK.

How hard is that to possibly understand?

If we had no consciousness and no possible way of thinking and nothing else is around to perceive existence. Then Nothing exists.

Stop using strawmen attacks against me right now ass wad. I will not tolerate those.

SOUND is only a sound because we hear it. That is why we call it sound. Hence my My little pony assertion. Because we do not perceive them as actually existing and until we actually SEE or whatever an actual life form of that variety actually existing as a real life thing. ITS FANTASY!

Do you even understand reality in that tiny feeble little mind of yours, or is your ignorance blocking that from happening? I got a better idea. Why don't you PROVE to me that something can exist if we never existed to begin with in the first place...you cannot. There for we must assume that if we never existed. Nothing did.
Because existence itself IS consciousness. Until something is around to register and examine the universe and make the claim that..oh...ok..this "now I just invented the word existence and its definition and invented a definition as well".

What part of, the only reason you can even argue any of this is because you can think and have already perceived and accepted the universe of having a past without us do you not understand?

Take all of that away and you could never possibly answer that question.


I am gonna lay this down as simple as I can because apparently you do not understand what a "thought" is ok?

So here we go.

The only reason I exist in this universe is because I can think. I know I exist because my parents and every other living thing In the universe has Acknowledged my existence.

People can see me, Think about me, taste me, touch me, and hear me.

This is called perception, the first half of existence. If you cannot see, smell, hear, or taste it or be detected in any way what so ever, It does not exist with one exception and that is the other half of what makes existence and its the most important.

Thought.

We know we exist, because we can think about it. We can also think about things that we know do not exist yet and later discover we were right!

However, We are the ones who invented the word existence and what its meaning is. We invented what can and cannot exist. We invented definitions and language.
We invented what the word History meant and we invented time. Time in of itself does not actually exist and is nothing more than a straight line in a sense. When something happens its over and gone forever. Time is only time because we can perceive X event happening relative to Y event outside of it. That is what we call time. HUMANS invented TIME by thought alone and giving it a name.

If nothing existed that could have a sense of time, Then it would not matter whether or not X events are still happening in relation to Y happening over there.

We exist because we Know we exist. We know we exist because we can Think AND perceive it and we know the universe had a past because we can think.

If you take that all away. Then nothing exists. Just like how the MLP world does not exist.

I AM NOT SAYING, THINK IT EXISTS AND IT DOES..

Obviously your meaningless Strawman is pathetic and weak.

What I am saying is that the fact that we think and perceive things and the fact that we invented the word and its meaning "existence". Reality is 100% perception and thought. Nothing more!

Ask a plant if it exists and you will see what I mean. A plant can't answer you. It can't think. It can't do anything really. So if everything was plants. There would be nothing to acknowledge existence. There for, nothing would exist because the word existence, universe and history and life would never be invented by a thinking mind and we would not be having this arguement.


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23-06-2014, 03:55 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(23-06-2014 02:51 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 02:10 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  You appear to be saying that without eyeballs to detect it, a range of electromagnetic radiation wavelength wouldn't exist. My (admittedly thin) knowledge of early cosmology is that there was a period of millions of years immediately after the Big Bang where radiation in the visible light spectrum saturated the young universe well before such structures as dust, let alone planets with eyeballed living organisms on them, could form.

I know there's an argument that the tree falling in the earless forest makes no sound because there's nothing to transduce the vibrating air into a neural sensation, but the tree has still fallen. A state of existence has shifted to another state, still extant. So I can't make sense of your assertion. Did I misunderstand it?

Yes, a sound is only a sound unless something can hear it. That is why we call it sound.

(23-06-2014 06:11 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  OK.

Wow.

While you are wishing a bar of gold for yourself, wish one to appear on my desk as well. When it does we'll talk about whether "consciousness is 100% of what makes existence".


STRAWMAN

Again, When did I ever say just because we wish something to exist it does.

My argument is reality is 100% subjective. We exist because we...can...THINK.

How hard is that to possibly understand?

If we had no consciousness and no possible way of thinking and nothing else is around to perceive existence. Then Nothing exists.

Stop using strawmen attacks against me right now ass wad. I will not tolerate those.

SOUND is only a sound because we hear it. That is why we call it sound. Hence my My little pony assertion. Because we do not perceive them as actually existing and until we actually SEE or whatever an actual life form of that variety actually existing as a real life thing. ITS FANTASY!

Do you even understand reality in that tiny feeble little mind of yours, or is your ignorance blocking that from happening? I got a better idea. Why don't you PROVE to me that something can exist if we never existed to begin with in the first place...you cannot. There for we must assume that if we never existed. Nothing did.
Because existence itself IS consciousness. Until something is around to register and examine the universe and make the claim that..oh...ok..this "now I just invented the word existence and its definition and invented a definition as well".

What part of, the only reason you can even argue any of this is because you can think and have already perceived and accepted the universe of having a past without us do you not understand?

Take all of that away and you could never possibly answer that question.


I am gonna lay this down as simple as I can because apparently you do not understand what a "thought" is ok?

So here we go.

The only reason I exist in this universe is because I can think. I know I exist because my parents and every other living thing In the universe has Acknowledged my existence.

People can see me, Think about me, taste me, touch me, and hear me.

This is called perception, the first half of existence. If you cannot see, smell, hear, or taste it or be detected in any way what so ever, It does not exist with one exception and that is the other half of what makes existence and its the most important.

Thought.

We know we exist, because we can think about it. We can also think about things that we know do not exist yet and later discover we were right!

However, We are the ones who invented the word existence and what its meaning is. We invented what can and cannot exist. We invented definitions and language.
We invented what the word History meant and we invented time. Time in of itself does not actually exist and is nothing more than a straight line in a sense. When something happens its over and gone forever. Time is only time because we can perceive X event happening relative to Y event outside of it. That is what we call time. HUMANS invented TIME by thought alone and giving it a name.

If nothing existed that could have a sense of time, Then it would not matter whether or not X events are still happening in relation to Y happening over there.

We exist because we Know we exist. We know we exist because we can Think AND perceive it and we know the universe had a past because we can think.

If you take that all away. Then nothing exists. Just like how the MLP world does not exist.

I AM NOT SAYING, THINK IT EXISTS AND IT DOES..

Obviously your meaningless Strawman is pathetic and weak.

What I am saying is that the fact that we think and perceive things and the fact that we invented the word and its meaning "existence". Reality is 100% perception and thought. Nothing more!

Ask a plant if it exists and you will see what I mean. A plant can't answer you. It can't think. It can't do anything really. So if everything was plants. There would be nothing to acknowledge existence. There for, nothing would exist because the word existence, universe and history and life would never be invented by a thinking mind and we would not be having this arguement.

You have a conflicted view that's limited to "word names"for absolutely no reason and it doesn't actually provide any insight that has value in this context.

No, sound isn't sound because we call it sound... Existence doesn't only exist when we use the term existence. These are arguments lacking any substance but trying to state the meaning is only what creates reality. That MEANING is irrelevant. Without consciousness there is no meaning to anything, no label, but that doesn't make up or create the state of matter.

Sound isn't a matter merely of hearing. These concepts have developed basses on multiple sensations to understand how they work and how they effect the world absent of experiencing them. Even if we had no ears or concept of hearing, if we were beside a tree falling in the forest, we would feel the vibration this event caused. Even without a name for sound, concept of sound, or ability to recognize sound... that event was still creating sound.

This concept that's been floated around for some time, doesn't provide any insight to reality because it limits what actually is happening. How we perceive reality is 100% consciousness, but it doesn't limit reality to only being perception. If that concept was universally true, there could not be reality PRIOR to perception... it's limited and flawed with the universe in a natural state.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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23-06-2014, 09:36 PM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2014 10:25 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
Shadow Fox,

It's not a strawman. I simply asked you to demonstrate what you affirm as true and in the very next breath you affirmed it again when you you wrote: Consciousness is 100% of what makes existence.

You can't get much more explicit than that. The word "makes" is synonymous with "creates". You are saying that consciousness makes or creates reality and so I am asking you to make or create a bar of gold for me with your consciousness. I don't see how you could possibly call my request a strawman.

When you say that "Consciousness is 100% of what makes existence" that is a truth claim. In making a truth claim you are affirming the primacy of existence implicitly. You are saying the truth of this statement obtains independently of anyone's consciousness. You are using the primacy of existence in making the claim while the content of the claim affirms the primacy of consciousness. You are saying A is A and A is not A at the same time and you don't see a problem with that?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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23-06-2014, 09:43 PM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2014 09:56 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
Shadow Fox,

you wrote: I AM NOT SAYING, THINK IT EXISTS AND IT DOES..

And then 2 sentences later you wrote: Reality is 100% perception and thought. Nothing more!

How is that not a contradiction?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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23-06-2014, 10:21 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
God's tears.

[Image: talisker.jpg]

#sigh
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23-06-2014, 11:07 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
Philosophical nit picking, but if the universe is objective, we could never know about it.

You are basically challenging the theist to prove that god's omnipotence is even possible. Which is a heady concept for a being that, by definition, isn't governed by our reality.
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23-06-2014, 11:08 PM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2014 11:27 PM by pablo.)
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
No True Scotsman would ever be converted! Banana_zorro
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23-06-2014, 11:14 PM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2014 11:21 PM by Shadow Fox.)
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(23-06-2014 09:43 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Shadow Fox,

you wrote: I AM NOT SAYING, THINK IT EXISTS AND IT DOES..

And then 2 sentences later you wrote: Reality is 100% perception and thought. Nothing more!

How is that not a contradiction?

Because you are confusing

I think X exists and therefor it poofs into existence with magic with..

X exists because we can think. Because we have thought we are to recognize that it is there in front of us and there for it is real.

It is because we are here and are able to think and perceive it to exist that we KNOW it does.

Without consciousness, we do not exist because existence is perception.
Without the ability to stand up and say...I know I exist because I can think, because I can feel and see and smell and hear everything and everything around me is effected by my relative actions and existence. Then nothing exists. Its just a meaningless space where no living or non living entity is there to recognize it.
Without that being there, nothing exists.



Let me ask you a question in the form of a scenario.

Let's say you are standing in front of me.
I cannot see you
I cannot smell you
I cannot hear you
I cannot touch you
I cannot hear you
I cannot think about you because we never met.

AND
You have no consciousness!
You cannot feel
You cannot think
You cannot see
You Cannot smell
You cannot hear

We cannot interact in any way shape or form, you give off no energy and do not interact with gravity, energy, Dark or negative energy or anything.

Are you really there in front of me? Do you actually exist? How could you possibly prove that?
You cannot, therefor, you don't exist unless something, someway is able to recognize you as having existed. Sure you might still be "something" standing there. But, just like the stuff outside the universe and what was here before time and space happened. You don't technically exist until something external your you internally recognize yourself as being there.


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