How to convert True Scotsman
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-06-2014, 08:23 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(25-06-2014 08:17 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 07:44 PM)Ecce Homo Wrote:  Do you hold to what Ayn Rand referred to as Objectivism?

Yes.

Read this page at your leisure. You do not have to reply.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Objectivism
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Ecce Homo's post
25-06-2014, 08:25 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(25-06-2014 08:21 PM)Ecce Homo Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 08:17 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I doubt Scotsman does, that has nothing to do with objective reality.

He does.

The primacy of existence is one of the fundamental principles of Objectivism.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-06-2014, 08:29 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(25-06-2014 08:23 PM)Ecce Homo Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 08:17 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Yes.

Read this page at your leisure. You do not have to reply.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Objectivism

Thanks for the link to the totally objective and unbiased article on Objectivism.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-06-2014, 08:51 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(25-06-2014 08:17 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 07:44 PM)Ecce Homo Wrote:  Do you hold to what Ayn Rand referred to as Objectivism?

I doubt Scotsman does, that has nothing to do with objective reality.

It's just a horribly misleading title like "scientology" which confuses outsiders making them think it refers to scientific thought.

I do ClydeLee.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-06-2014, 09:55 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(25-06-2014 08:17 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 07:44 PM)Ecce Homo Wrote:  Do you hold to what Ayn Rand referred to as Objectivism?

Yes.


And even though I'm pretty new here too, I think I can say welcome to the forum.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-06-2014, 10:10 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(25-06-2014 08:51 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 08:17 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I doubt Scotsman does, that has nothing to do with objective reality.

It's just a horribly misleading title like "scientology" which confuses outsiders making them think it refers to scientific thought.

I do ClydeLee.

Does DemonicLemon know about this?


Oh, wait......commas....


Let's eat Grandma
Let's eat, Grandma....



...nevermind....



Tongue

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Taqiyya Mockingbird's post
25-06-2014, 10:30 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(25-06-2014 10:10 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 08:51 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I do ClydeLee.

Does DemonicLemon know about this?


Oh, wait......commas....


Let's eat Grandma
Let's eat, Grandma....



...nevermind....



Tongue

Good one. You're one sharp Taq.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes true scotsman's post
25-06-2014, 11:42 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(25-06-2014 10:30 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 10:10 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Does DemonicLemon know about this?


Oh, wait......commas....


Let's eat Grandma
Let's eat, Grandma....



...nevermind....



Tongue

Good one. You're one sharp Taq.

Yeah, OK, but maybe I get a little Taq-i, and there are those who claim that perhaps I'm a little Taq-less, so I hear, anyway, ....but fuck it. Cool

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-06-2014, 11:46 PM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(24-06-2014 07:52 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(23-06-2014 11:14 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Because you are confusing

I think X exists and therefor it poofs into existence with magic with..

X exists because we can think. Because we have thought we are to recognize that it is there in front of us and there for it is real.

It is because we are here and are able to think and perceive it to exist that we KNOW it does.

Without consciousness, we do not exist because existence is perception.
Without the ability to stand up and say...I know I exist because I can think, because I can feel and see and smell and hear everything and everything around me is effected by my relative actions and existence. Then nothing exists. Its just a meaningless space where no living or non living entity is there to recognize it.
Without that being there, nothing exists.



Let me ask you a question in the form of a scenario.

Let's say you are standing in front of me.
I cannot see you
I cannot smell you
I cannot hear you
I cannot touch you
I cannot hear you
I cannot think about you because we never met.

AND
You have no consciousness!
You cannot feel
You cannot think
You cannot see
You Cannot smell
You cannot hear

We cannot interact in any way shape or form, you give off no energy and do not interact with gravity, energy, Dark or negative energy or anything.

Are you really there in front of me? Do you actually exist? How could you possibly prove that?
You cannot, therefor, you don't exist unless something, someway is able to recognize you as having existed. Sure you might still be "something" standing there. But, just like the stuff outside the universe and what was here before time and space happened. You don't technically exist until something external your you internally recognize yourself as being there.

I'm not confusing anything. You explicitly said that reality is 100% thought which means that thought is 100% reality. That is what the primacy of consciousness means. And when you say something is 100% this or that, that is a claim that something is an absolute. That it obtains independently from consciousness which is what the concept "absolute" or "100%" means. You keep contradicting your claim of the primacy of consciousness every time you make a truth claim and you don't seem to have a problem with that. If the universe is 100% subjective as you have claimed then there is no such thing as truth, or proof, or any need for argument since something can be true for you and not true for me at the same time.

I'm glad that my thinking isn't this muddled.

To answer your question:

Let's say you are standing in front of me.
I cannot see you
I cannot smell you
I cannot hear you
I cannot touch you
I cannot hear you
I cannot think about you because we never met.

AND
You have no consciousness!
You cannot feel
You cannot think
You cannot see
You Cannot smell
You cannot hear

We cannot interact in any way shape or form, you give off no energy and do not interact with gravity, energy, Dark or negative energy or anything.

Are you really there in front of me? Do you actually exist? How could you possibly prove that?
You cannot, therefor, you don't exist unless something, someway is able to recognize you as having existed. Sure you might still be "something" standing there. But, just like the stuff outside the universe and what was here before time and space happened. You don't technically exist until something external your you internally recognize yourself as being there.


My answer is yes because existence has primacy over consciousness. existence obtains independently of consciousness and your questions affirms this implicitly. You start off your example with "lets say you're standing in front of me" How could I be standing in front of you unless I exist. How could I prove anything unless I exist. Your question presupposes my existence.

When you say "you can not hear, smell, think, feel or see" you are presupposing there is some thing which doesn't posses these faculties. Give up Shadow, you can't escape from the primacy of existence.

I think we have every reason to believe that the universe is objective, but we can only experience the universe subjectively. For that reason I don't think it makes much sense to talk about the universe in objective terms because there are no people who take part in the universe in an objective way. This is really a philosophical point, but one that can't be denied. Certainty is impossible, the best you can do is universal subjective agreement.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Michael_Tadlock's post
26-06-2014, 06:39 AM
RE: How to convert True Scotsman
(25-06-2014 11:46 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(24-06-2014 07:52 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I'm not confusing anything. You explicitly said that reality is 100% thought which means that thought is 100% reality. That is what the primacy of consciousness means. And when you say something is 100% this or that, that is a claim that something is an absolute. That it obtains independently from consciousness which is what the concept "absolute" or "100%" means. You keep contradicting your claim of the primacy of consciousness every time you make a truth claim and you don't seem to have a problem with that. If the universe is 100% subjective as you have claimed then there is no such thing as truth, or proof, or any need for argument since something can be true for you and not true for me at the same time.

I'm glad that my thinking isn't this muddled.

To answer your question:

Let's say you are standing in front of me.
I cannot see you
I cannot smell you
I cannot hear you
I cannot touch you
I cannot hear you
I cannot think about you because we never met.

AND
You have no consciousness!
You cannot feel
You cannot think
You cannot see
You Cannot smell
You cannot hear

We cannot interact in any way shape or form, you give off no energy and do not interact with gravity, energy, Dark or negative energy or anything.

Are you really there in front of me? Do you actually exist? How could you possibly prove that?
You cannot, therefor, you don't exist unless something, someway is able to recognize you as having existed. Sure you might still be "something" standing there. But, just like the stuff outside the universe and what was here before time and space happened. You don't technically exist until something external your you internally recognize yourself as being there.


My answer is yes because existence has primacy over consciousness. existence obtains independently of consciousness and your questions affirms this implicitly. You start off your example with "lets say you're standing in front of me" How could I be standing in front of you unless I exist. How could I prove anything unless I exist. Your question presupposes my existence.

When you say "you can not hear, smell, think, feel or see" you are presupposing there is some thing which doesn't posses these faculties. Give up Shadow, you can't escape from the primacy of existence.

I think we have every reason to believe that the universe is objective, but we can only experience the universe subjectively. For that reason I don't think it makes much sense to talk about the universe in objective terms because there are no people who take part in the universe in an objective way. This is really a philosophical point, but one that can't be denied. Certainty is impossible, the best you can do is universal subjective agreement.

Yes we all experience the universe as the subject of consciousness. So yes I think you are right that we experience the world subjectively. We have no choice about that it's our nature and I don't know how we could experience it any other way. But when I use the term objective I mean that when we look out at the world the things we perceive are real, they are independent of us, they are absolutes. the subject does the experiencing and the object does the existing. When we look inward to our imagination then what we see is subjective. It doesn't exist in the real world. It may correspond to something in the real world or be totally made up but it exists only in the mind.

The Abrahamic religions hold that everything is the subject of God's consciousness and conforms to God's consciousness which is why it affirms a subjective universe.

As far as universal subjective agreement, that is the purpose of a rational epistemology with a sound theory of concepts. That is where reason and logic come in. Ayn Rand called logic "the art of non-contradictory identification" and that is its purpose, to show us when we have made an error in thinking.

If two of us are looking at the same object, say an apple, and I see an apple and you see a rock then one of us is right and the other is wrong.

that is what I mean when I say "subjective" and "objective"

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: