How to deal with stereotyps and bias based on ethnicity
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26-01-2014, 11:18 PM
RE: How to deal with stereotyps and bias based on ethnicity
(26-01-2014 10:38 PM)Vipa Wrote:  So basically women really are inferior to men and should stay at home, because they are emotional and can't act rationally and do not have the necessary brain capacity for higher education?

Blacks are just slave material afterall and not exactly human beings?

Must be true because these views were held for hundreds or thousands of years as stereotypes of these groups and stereotypes come to be because they usually apply to the vast majority of said group.
Makes you wonder why these deep insights aren't applied any longer, since they must still be true to a high degree (or are black people suddenly not black anymore? Oo)
Oh, come on. He was exaggerating, admittedly, but his general point - that stereotypes have a firm basis in reality - shouldn't be all too controversial. Consider

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26-01-2014, 11:40 PM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2014 11:48 PM by Vipa.)
RE: How to deal with stereotyps and bias based on ethnicity
(26-01-2014 11:18 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Oh, come on. He was exaggerating, admittedly, but his general point - that stereotypes have a firm basis in reality - shouldn't be all too controversial. Consider

So you are saying stereotypes have a firm basis in reality yet the stereotypes I mentioned don't? But they are stereotypes and therefore have a firm basis in reality (your words make no distinction like "some/many stereotypes")...

I would actually argue the exact opposite. Most stereotypes are complete bs and maybe few aren't. Maybe you have a set of stereotypes that aren't but most people certainly don't. The conservatives german mentions probably hold a lot of stereotypes that are utterly ridiculous.

Edit:
For example most of the conservatives in switzerland dislike (an understatement) foreigners for many reasons, but miraculously every single one they know personally is the exception to the general rule that they are stupid, ill mannered, only taking our jobs, taking over the country with evil intentions etc.
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27-01-2014, 12:30 AM
RE: How to deal with stereotyps and bias based on ethnicity
I would have suggested that we move our discussion elsewhere since we are in the "Personal Issues and Support" section; however, since this thread doesn't actually belong here, I suppose it's all right.

(26-01-2014 11:40 PM)Vipa Wrote:  So you are saying stereotypes have a firm basis in reality yet the stereotypes I mentioned don't?
Yes and no, because you confused stereotypes with normative statements several times in your post. A stereotype does not concern itself with the way things ought to be (e.g. "women [...] should stay at home [...]"), merely with the way they supposedly are (e.g. "women [...] are inferior to men [...]").

You need to remember that a stereotype, by definition, is a widely held belief about the characteristics of a certain group of people. Your second example, for instance, that black people are only useful as slave material, is not a widely held belief in modern times. As for your first example, that women are inferior to men and should stay at home: where do you suppose that stereotype came from? Do you think it was made up entirely or is it perhaps possible that there are many submissive women and housewives out there?

As I have said in my previous post, War Horse certainly was exaggerating when he said that a stereotype applies to a vast majority of people and I have a good example in mind to demonstrate the point I am trying to make. It is a common stereotype in English-speaking countries that German people dress like this:

[Image: 5_2_1_2_20100917_AKTUELL.JPG]

Now, while there are certainly many German people that dress in this fashion, it is a style that originates from and is mainly worn in only one of sixteen German states (see below). In fact, I would argue that most of the stereotypes that foreigners have in mind concerning German people originate from the way people in that particular state live (e.g. that Germans love to eat sauerkraut and sausages and drink a lot of beer).

[Image: Deutschland_Lage_von_Bayern.svg]

(26-01-2014 11:40 PM)Vipa Wrote:  But they are stereotypes and therefore have a firm basis in reality (your words make no distinction like "some/many stereotypes")...
No, that is not what I said. A stereotype is a stereotype because it has firm basis in reality, not the other way around.

(26-01-2014 11:40 PM)Vipa Wrote:  I would actually argue the exact opposite. Most stereotypes are complete bs and maybe few aren't. Maybe you have a set of stereotypes that aren't but most people certainly don't. The conservatives german mentions probably hold a lot of stereotypes that are utterly ridiculous.
Can you name a modern stereotype that doesn't have a basis in reality? Consider

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27-01-2014, 02:44 AM
RE: How to deal with stereotyps and bias based on ethnicity
(26-01-2014 11:40 PM)Vipa Wrote:  ...
most of the conservatives in switzerland
...

I guess there is a fine line between stereotyping and generalising.

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27-01-2014, 03:27 AM
RE: How to deal with stereotyps and bias based on ethnicity
One of my professors informed me that he generalizes and students stereotype.

I believe it's stereotyping when disparagement is evident, and it promotes hate, contempt, and cruel fun-making for a particular group of people.

I live in a largely poor black neighborhood in southern USA; it is sometimes hard to keep a healthy perspective, to not stereotype--the first step to racism I believe.

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27-01-2014, 05:13 AM
RE: How to deal with stereotyps and bias based on ethnicity
(27-01-2014 12:30 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Yes and no, because you confused stereotypes with normative statements several times in your post. A stereotype does not concern itself with the way things ought to be (e.g. "women [...] should stay at home [...]"), merely with the way they supposedly are (e.g. "women [...] are inferior to men [...]").

No I didn't confuse them, I just added the discriminatory conclusions made from the stereotypes to make a point. And yes I added an example by edit.

Quote:I guess there is a fine line between stereotyping and generalising.
I disagree, stereotyping is generalising. Stereotype content refers to the attributes that people think characterize a group
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27-01-2014, 06:02 AM
RE: How to deal with stereotyps and bias based on ethnicity
(27-01-2014 12:30 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Germans love to eat sauerkraut and sausages and drink a lot of beer.
I love to eat sauerkraut and sausages, and I drink beer but only bud light. Can I still count as a stereotypical German? Big Grin

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27-01-2014, 06:42 AM
RE: How to deal with stereotyps and bias based on ethnicity
Thanks Vosur for explaining my reply better than I may have come across.

I stand by my take that there are reasons for stereotypes to hold true for most groups, barring any over the top statements, such as blacks liking to be slaves or women arent worth the same as men..... these are extremes.

On a side note, I wore Lederhosen and drank beer growing up in Hannover (Langenhagen), however I hate Sauerkraut. So, 2 out of 3 things just mentioned here, apply to me as a German, and yes, I still love my beer.

Funny, I dont feel offended at all.... actually, I'm fairly proud of it. Now saying that all Germans are white supremacists, aryan nazis would be an over the top statement.
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27-01-2014, 07:05 AM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2014 07:17 AM by Vipa.)
RE: How to deal with stereotyps and bias based on ethnicity
(27-01-2014 06:42 AM)War Horse Wrote:  Funny, I dont feel offended at all.... actually, I'm fairly proud of it. Now saying that all Germans are white supremacists, aryan nazis would be an over the top statement.

But it would also be a stereotype, just because you give it another name doesn't make it another thing. Just because you happen to disagree with said stereotype and can't identify with it, does not make it a non-stereotype unless you're redefining the word stereotype as e.g. "generalisations with a true basis" which isn't the actual definition...

Edit:
Basically: Extreme Stereotypes are still stereotypes
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27-01-2014, 07:41 AM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2014 07:50 AM by Marozz.)
RE: How to deal with stereotyps and bias based on ethnicity
(25-01-2014 06:48 AM)War Horse Wrote:  Theres a reason 'stereotypes' come to be, because they usually apply to the vast majority of said group.

It cant be said that it applies to all, or to even individuales in a group, but that the overall picture of the stereotype is pretty spot on.

Its the generalisation that seems to upset the ones it doesnt apply to.

I feel no slight when I get it myself, 1) I'm a German, and most of the stereotypes shit applies to me, 2) I'm a biker and most of that also applied to me, tho I've gotten out of the "lifestye" and just ride now.

People just need to harden the fuck up and not take things to seriously.

I'm Irish. Irish "stereotypes" are usually portrayed as drunken louts who are always fighting. There was an episode of the Simpsons which portrayed the Irish as drunks. There were complaints ( some from 2nd generation Irish). Marge Simpson says "This was such a pleasant St. Patrick's Day until the Irish people showed up". I found it very funny.

There is a basis in fact. Whenever we have an important visitor to Ireland they are always pictured holding a pint of Guinness. Why? Because Ireland and alcohol go hand in hand.
   

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