How to debate end timers

[DreamWeaver]

Welcome to the forum.

There's really nothing in the Bible that says specifically of an apocalypse...Revelation was believed to be written by a Jewish church leader (possibly John) who was familiar with the seven churches during Nero's reign. Since the Christians were being persecuted it was written in what is believed to be a code to encourage the Christians to continue their worship. The end of times refered to was meant more as the imminent doom of the Christians under this rule.
I personally believe that the author, whoever he was, was high when he wrote it.

[Tartarus Sauce]

Ever since organized societies started, there have been those who have prophesied its destruction. History is chockfull of doomsday predictors, thousands of them in written history, and millions of them that never made into historical conscious (every society has had its fair share equivalents of those local loonies down on the street corner, wearing a sign around their necks, foretelling the end of the world). Yet, the end does not come. Why? Because a personal conviction in delusional thought processing doesn't dictate reality. It's just a shitty prediction of future events based on flawed interpretations without a sound basis.

The diversity in characteristics between various doomsday groups is quite varied, so I'm not going to be able to address all of it. However, a common element of these apocalyptic nuts is selfishness. You've probably noticed that those who tend to sound the horn on the coming apocalypse believe they are to be spared from the reckoning that is to be cast upon humanity. They will get to watch the rest of the world burn, because humanity has angered their god (a god with the same bigoted, childish, intolerant, and irrational ways as his followers) into a seething rage, and all these natural disasters and man-made calamities are his way of expressing his dissatisfaction and upcoming castigation. In the meantime, the doomsday cult will be rewarded for their blind obedience when the apocalypse comes and be granted entrance into God's kingdom or some other paradisal equivalent. Others will perish and suffer eternal torment for the sake of these chosen few.

Sounds sort of like a sadistic self-gratification complex doesn't it? From what you have said of your family so far, they appear to be caught under this. If they view you as beyond saving, they probably would be more than content to watch you perish with the rest of the world in their hypothetical doomsday scenario. All that matters is that they get their own asses into heaven. Remember that in the New Testament, Jesus instructed his followers to abandon their families in favor of following him to the path to salvation (Jesus and his Apostles were little more than a Jewish Doomsday cult after all). It's THAT selfish and blind a belief when it comes to this sort of "judgement day" thinking.

This particular aspect of fundamental thinking (the selfishness and how their god mimics the narrow-minded characteristics of his followers almost to a fault) really highlights how religion is the manifestation and projections of man's desires and prejudices, and is little more than an oppressive tool used to control the masses into a standardized thought process that shuns critical thinking when it falls into the wrong hands (which is a majority of the time, although some would consider it to be all of the time). So although I didn't really cover how to debate against this particular form of doomsday predictors, I did give cover a bit of the psychological aspect. I don't suggest trying to dissuade your family from their beliefs since they sound dug in pretty deep, unless you want to practice your debating skills. Although I do understand that since they are family you might have a hard time refraining yourself, in which case it's worth a shot, but don't expect them to be swayed by reason, that's not what their beliefs are founded upon.

Just one more quick point, the reason they brought up that stuff about all that jibber jabber is that they are convinced that their interpretation of the Bible is indisputably correct and that there is no room for ambiguity. Of course, the Bible is an extremely unreliable book for drawing conclusive statements since its thousands of copied manuscripts agree with each other in terms of the language printed on the damn page about as much as a liberal socialist would agree with a conservative Christian fundie. Hell, even within one copy of a manuscript you get LOADS of contradictions regarding the details of events and characters. That's why there are so many different sects in Christianity, the Bible is EXTREMELY contradictory and ambiguous, and there is not single interpretation that could objectively be labeled as correct more than the others (there are interpretations however, which can clearly be labeled as even further off the deep end than others).

Hope that helped.

[Spicetooth]

I will point him to that verse. Thanks. I'm saddened really, all of this makes us further apart when a common belief had us closer together, and me with a psychological imbalance as a price for that closeness.

[Bucky Ball]

Jesus was one of about 20 apocalyptic preachers. They all thought the end times were about to happen, as the Romans had defeated them, and were occupying Jerusalem, and the rest of the country. They did try to resist. After the Bar Kochba revolt, in about 133 CE Jerusalem was completely destroyed, and the apocalyptics went out of favor, as it STILL didn't happen. It's one of the main reasons Christianity developed the way it did. They had to make up reasons to continue the cult after the apocalypse didn't happen.

[Erxomai]

(29-10-2012 07:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  

(29-10-2012 06:11 PM)Spicetooth Wrote:  My brother is telling me the end of the world and all this weird weather is a direct result of America not listening to God.

I asked him to finally back up what he is saying so he sends me a bunch of bible verses that talk of goats with long hair, bulls and weird statues.

I asked him to explain to me how this in any way backed up anything in his original statements.

All he could say was "all I can say is when you go to church, that's school, and you just get it. Just like learning how an engine works"

To which I responded: "Well, not exactly. When I ask you to teach me about how to tune up an engine you teach me exactly that. You don't ask me to read about talking plant life or animals that don't get hair cuts?"

When you guys are done laughing, can you help me understand a better way to confront this kind of logic? It the way my whole family believes and I really would like some help refuting their end times bs.

I checked the refuting section on Seth's site and didn't see anything on this topic.

Just tell 'em Jeebus thought the same thing, and all the early Christians thought the same thing, and they were all wrong. The world will end, unless humans screw up something, or a huge asteroid hits, when the sun goes red giant.

Luke 21:32 "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened".

woops

Thank God for Dispensationalism so we can explain that Jesus referred to the Church Age and since the church is still here, brethren-a, we can say Hallelujah! We will soon be taken up into the air! Can I get an amen???

No?

How about a fuck you?

[Misanthropik]

Ask him why "weird weather" occurs every single day, all over the world, and can be predicted by anyone who deals with meteorology. Then ask him why weather affects people from all walks of life; regardless of beliefs or social standing. Then ask why said weather has been occurring for millennia on this Earth.

After you've done all those things; he'll continue to find reasons to attribute weather to God, at which point you simply give up and walk away.

[Impulse]

(29-10-2012 06:11 PM)Spicetooth Wrote:  My brother is telling me the end of the world and all this weird weather is a direct result of America not listening to God.

I asked him to finally back up what he is saying so he sends me a bunch of bible verses that talk of goats with long hair, bulls and weird statues.

I asked him to explain to me how this in any way backed up anything in his original statements.

All he could say was "all I can say is when you go to church, that's school, and you just get it. Just like learning how an engine works"

To which I responded: "Well, not exactly. When I ask you to teach me about how to tune up an engine you teach me exactly that. You don't ask me to read about talking plant life or animals that don't get hair cuts?"

When you guys are done laughing, can you help me understand a better way to confront this kind of logic? It the way my whole family believes and I really would like some help refuting their end times bs.

I checked the refuting section on Seth's site and didn't see anything on this topic.

Hi and welcome!

Ask him if he is aware that there have been countless predictions for centuries of end times complete with exact or approximate dates and none have proven correct yet. Then ask him why he thinks he is the lucky one to "really know".

(Sorry, I answered before I was done laughing. Long-haired goats and weird statues... )

[Spicetooth]

YUUUUUP! Been there. No reasoning going at all but he did say "the Noah's ark think is a mind fuck for me. "

I love how much he swears its just funny hearing fuck and shit so much as he defends the bible. Hahahahaha

[SkepticalChima]

The issue. Of the world ending now didn't start today.....they're jusr postponing the end date,daneil of the bible theorized that there time was the end time and wrote his fuckin revelations, till now they stll wait for its fulfilment ....and also john of patmos,....so all those imbeciles who wtote apolycapse books where just imaginin a fufilment of them during there lifetime or immediately after there death and made overstated divination claims

[kingschosen]

Matthew 24:36
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.