How to defend against this.
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07-06-2012, 08:03 AM
RE: How to defend against this.
Hello,

Having been raised in what would be considered a "stout Christian home," I may be able to help. As others above have stated, there are many contradictions in the Bible regarding what to uphold as far as the New Testament taking over the old. The scripture most commonly used to define the New Testament's dominion is Hebrews 8:7-13 (I copied and pasted this from an old New King James Bible program on my laptop)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

This may be what your mother was referring to. Many of our issues with the Bible come from Leviticus as this Book is the considered the do's and don'ts of Judaism. As stated above by others comments, Jesus says both that you are not to keep the old law, and then other times that you are to keep the old law. Once he even gets specific and names only 6 of the 10 commandments from the old testament to keep in Matthew 19:16-22. The biggest point that Christians try and argue when we point out the contradictions of Jesus speaking on the old testament and the apostles doing the same later, is that since Christ had not yet died, the Old Testatment was still in effect as "God's Law." His death signified end of the old, and his resurrection signified the start of the new, in which his famous command to "Go forth and teach the word to all nations" was given.

If you ever debate issues with a Christian on the fallacies of the Bible and they say "Well that's in the Old Testament." You can give them this new testament verse in proving that their Old Testament's true purpose is to be proof of the New Testament, used as a tutor to understand the new, and is still owned by the same God. That scripture is Galatians 3:24. Note: Most of Galatians 3, discusses the importance of the Old Testament in a Christians life, so when one of them tries to simply dismiss the Old Testament, remind them of that.

The biggest thing to note is that the same God is the deity for both the Old and New Testament. Simple logic shows us that if the Bible admits the the Old Law not being able to deliver righteousness, as Galations 3 does, then how could we worship a being who claims to be all-knowing and all-powerful yet makes a huge mistake in leading a 4,000 year war-mongering religion while killing millions only to say, "This is what I meant to say" and establish the New Testament with next to 0 of the old ceremonies and traditions.

As far as studying the Bible, while I regret being raised Christian, I do tend to like the fact that I have more "biblical knowledge" than most of the "Christians" that I grew up with and debate with. I'm not saying you need to or should, but the best way to prove a devout Christian wrong, is using their own beliefs on them. So many Christians are unaware of how often the Bible contradicts itself, so in discussing with them you tend to find things that they do that are not 100% in accordance with the bible. And the Bible speaks to all sin being the same no matter the amount nor severity, so technically they are bound for hell if they do not abide by all of the Bible. Even Chrisopher Hitchens said in the 1st chapter of God Is Not Great, (definitely paraphrasing) that he held more biblical knowledge than many of his peers and those that he debates with in the Christian community, much to their anger.

Sorry for the long post, I sincerely hope this helps. If you need any more true biblical facts are arguements, I have plenty of them. As a matter of fact, Seth's portion of this site "Refuting the Bible" was what drew me to this site as I had been saying and thinking many of the things he writes on in that section.

Good Luck.

And yet another interesting topic I am not interested in.
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08-06-2012, 09:49 AM
RE: How to defend against this.
(05-06-2012 10:36 PM)paxilpwns Wrote:  I have very recently come out to my mother as an athiest and although she very much dislikes it, she still loves me for who i am. We had a small discusion on what I now believe/do not believe in. She asked me to read the bible due to the fact she has heard of athiests which are converted once doing so, which I did not respond to at the time but later stated "If I do not believe in the Muslum ways why should I study their book to prove to myself that it is not true". We later started to talk about instances in the bible (which I have never read through) where I could help my possition, but there is a certain rhetoric in which I could not dispute due to my lack of knowledge (and honestly she could not state where it was) as that "What your talking about was in the old testiment and somewhere it states that all which was O.K. then is not now." I know I could find it, if I were to just read the bible, but as stated earlier I do not need to read it to prove to myself it is false.
How do you defend? You don't. Tell her you love her and understand her concerns. She has given up her life, her ability to reason, as well as her responsibility, to something you have not. Reassure her that you will be just fine and that you only wish mutual love and respect for your respective positions.

Advise her that out of your respect for her, you are letting her know that you are walking a different path in your life than she. Tell your Mom you understand you will always be her child, and then ask her what kind of adult lets someone else think for them. Don't bring her life or belief into it... this is about you.
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If she's advised you to read the Bible, ask her why she hasn't done so herself. If she persists, tell her that you wanted your own ideas on the subject to remain objective, since you've heard that once people actually read the Bible, they can't help but become militant Atheists. (If you hadn't heard it before... uh, you have now.)

I'm not going to advise you to slog through the Bible; it's a long, poorly written, redundant, contradictory pile of racist, sexist, xenophobic, literature with an egocentric, narcissistic main character who cruelly and childishly fights with his own creations. I mean, if you want to read a "How Not To Live Life" kind of book... by all means, have at it - I can't think of anything more off-putting.
****

You are addressing all of your Mom's fears of the unknown. For her, God/belief takes care of those unknowns. Holy shit; what will happen to you, her child? She needs you to think the same things she does ... like a shield against all those unknowns... it's what keeps her safe. (Irrational, but it works for her.)

Moms are selfish; they have to be ... they want the best for their children... to protect love is an instinct... it's a matter of survival. But there is also an instinctual self preservation that churns evolution ... you have tapped into that instinct. You either preserve you, or preserve her. And since she probably won't be around as long as you will... might be best to go with preserving you. After all, you are the one you have to live with the rest of your life.

Now, tell your Mom you love her, and go forth and evolve. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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08-06-2012, 01:14 PM
RE: How to defend against this.
I've wondered if an atheist and a theist (both certain in their beliefs) went through the bible, paragraph by paragraph, and kept score on three positions based on reason:

1 - Certainly True
2 - Cannot be determined True or Not True
3 - Certainly Not True

Could you ask her to do this with you?

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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08-06-2012, 07:47 PM
RE: How to defend against this.
(08-06-2012 01:14 PM)Thomas Wrote:  I've wondered if an atheist and a theist (both certain in their beliefs) went through the bible, paragraph by paragraph, and kept score on three positions based on reason:

1 - Certainly True
2 - Cannot be determined True or Not True
3 - Certainly Not True

Could you ask her to do this with you?
Sounds like a good idea but I don't see this working out, at least peacefully. First the theist would have to let go of the idea that the Bible is 100% accurate, which would be considered a sin and borderline blasphemy. Otherwise all of the theists answers would be "Certainly true" and the atheist would be inclined to agree with historical facts like the reign of king ahaserus (butchered spelling) in Esther, also known as emperor Xerxes. The atheist would then disagree with any miracles or direct speakings with god, angels, holy sprirt, devil, etc.
Unless of course your whole intention of having this read through would be to prove how blind sighted the theist is by looking at his scorecard and seeing all "1s." In which case, bravo.

And yet another interesting topic I am not interested in.
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09-06-2012, 04:10 PM
RE: How to defend against this.
Something else you should consider pointing out is Malachi 3:6.

According to the buy bull god is unchanging. So why the change? As a matter of fact, god doesn't do anything he allegedly use to. He doesn't talk directly to us or perform crazy as miracles.

Forget Jesus. Stars died so you could live.-Lawrence Krauss

For god loved the world so much he tortured his only begotten son, gave him a 3 day nap only to wake up in ultimate awesomeness and called it a sacrifice.
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09-06-2012, 04:46 PM
RE: How to defend against this.
The thing I always emphasize is that the Hebrew Bible is a completely separate document from the New Testament, and this doesn't mean you can jettison the former when it says something inconvenient to you. There is no real cultural relationship between the two; the title "Old Testament" is erroneous and wrong, invented by Christians in the second century. Some Greek-speaking people got ahold of the Septuagint and began interpreting it in ways that alienated ethnic Jews from their own scriptures. They did not have permission to do this, but there were no copyright laws. This is why "Jesus" seems like such a myth to me, because he is the type of man-god you would invent if you were Greek and you were trying to adopt the Jewish religion as your own. In other words, the desire to possess the scriptures and the concept of a single "God" created the demand for a Jesus-like character, not the other way around.
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