How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
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23-03-2017, 10:14 AM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(22-03-2017 11:39 PM)theBorg Wrote:  So, one shall consider to have large baggage of knowledge, which is adding up. The course of Life shall prove if they are the real facts or not.

This is the Real Truth. The Large Baggages do add up.
In the course of The Life, too much of The Large Baggages can cause The Diabetes, Type II. This is The Sadness of the Large Baggages.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-03-2017, 01:03 PM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(23-03-2017 09:45 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  Despite this being a troll-originated thread, it's worth posting because of the knowledge we are accumulating for fence-sitters.

I don't know that the OP is a troll. I've read all posts from this member's intro last year and saw no troll behavior.

I didn't respond to a troll, I responded to the original post of the thread. Why do people assume this poster is a troll?

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23-03-2017, 01:30 PM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
If it walks like a troll ...

I don't know, maybe just experience with this type of behavior. The person says they are an atheist with some sort of weak explanation and then questions us without any grasp of rational thought used toward answering that question. And then he never responds to any of our posts despite it being days later and dozens of posts too.

I hope he isn't a troll but it feels fishy. Maybe troll is the wrong choice of word. How about driveby-ish?

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23-03-2017, 02:02 PM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2017 11:48 PM by kim.)
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(23-03-2017 01:30 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  If it walks like a troll ...

I don't know, maybe just experience with this type of behavior. The person says they are an atheist with some sort of weak explanation and then questions us without any grasp of rational thought used toward answering that question. And then he never responds to any of our posts despite it being days later and dozens of posts too.

I hope he isn't a troll but it feels fishy. Maybe troll is the wrong choice of word. How about driveby-ish?

The poster clearly states: My problem is, a few weeks ago, one of my friends ask about my scientific evidence to support my disbelief. As I explained long enough, he strucked me with a question.

The poster then quotes his friend's question. Then states he didn't know how to answer him while providing some of the thoughts going on in his mind. He then finishes by stating: I wish some of you could give me some insights about this question. thank you.
***

This poster admits to being a non-believer not quite a year.
The only personal frame of reference for deconversion I have are people I've seen on this forum who come and go. From what I have observed the process can be quite long and drawn out. It seems to be a back and forth kind of thing and a lot depends on how deeply one was into it and their environment.

Is there some formal behavior those in the midst of deconverting generally exhibit?

If uncertain about a poster, check his previous posts - I do it all the time.

Menji is Indonesian. In his intro thread he was quite forthcoming: Most of our people are Muslims, followed by Christians and Catholic. I knew there's some atheist community right here, but I don't think their vision fit with my perspective, most of atheist right here just jump on hard arguments and never listens, same like fundamental theists never listen to our logic.

I realize trolls can be menacing and take advantage of people. However, I've seen a few people come to this forum and simply not given the benefit of the doubt. This is another reason I come here and rarely stay for any great length of time anymore.

I think Menji and I look for the same things in a community:
I am looking forward to meet and know good and open minded atheist who can truly support humanity and community without bashing and doing harm on anyone.

No idea why he came here. Shy

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23-03-2017, 02:15 PM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
I appreciate your reply, Kim. I guess time will tell if Menji returns and responds to these 50+ posts. I don't know for certain if he is sincere, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because you presented a sound defense. Thanks.

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23-03-2017, 02:42 PM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(23-03-2017 02:15 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I appreciate your reply, Kim. I guess time will tell if Menji returns and responds to these 50+ posts. I don't know for certain if he is sincere, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because you presented a sound defense. Thanks.

Sorry - I'm not jumping on you personally, Will. It's just that lately, I've noticed, many here seem ready to confront every newcomer with a guilty until proven innocent attitude.

It's only been three days. I make posts I forget about for months.

Maybe Menji actually has a life. The nerve of him. Dodgy

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23-03-2017, 06:21 PM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(20-03-2017 10:06 PM)Menji Wrote:  Okay. I have been an non-believer almost a year now. It's a long process and I cannot really pinpoint the reason of my deconversion. But surely, other than justice and the bible itself, science took a great part in my reasoning.

For the past year, I could explain my point of view and reasoning why I became an atheist when my friends ask about my deconversion. The hardest argument is about Pascal's Wager, but I could give my logical reasoning to explain. My problem is, a few weeks ago, one of my friends ask about my scientific evidence to support my disbelief. As I explained long enough, he strucked me with a question

"How do you really know that scientific evidence is a fact? Yes we know the earth is round, not flat. But how do you know? You just took the word from scientist or science books or even science teacher in your elementary school. But you, yourself, doesn't not see the real evidence. That's sounds like believing to me. You believe in science, and despite you don't see the actual evidence, you just take the word from scientists. No different like us, the believer, take the word from priests."

After he said that, I don't know what to say. And I came to my though that "yes, it's a very good argument." So, I just said to him that he had a very good point and I have no good answer for him.

The question lingers until now for me. He had a really good point. How do we know evolution is truly a fact when only the scientists who see the evidence (we didn't see the actual minerals ourselves)? not us. How even do we know the earth is 4.6 billion years old, when we only knew it because we read science books (it's like reading a bible, huh?) or see a seminar from a distinguished astrophysics? How do we know the universe is 13.7 billion years old, when we know because we see a documentary?

The evidence is not in our hand, it's on the scientists hand. Why we should believe them? I think we must admit that we really have never see the evidence ourselves.

I know that evolution is a fact, and other scientific evidence are factual. But I don't have the words nor reasoning to explain it to my friends question. (he also consider the scientific evidence are factual, he is a nice liberal Christian).

I wish some of you could give me some insights about this question. thank you!Thumbsup

The answer is reason. Reason is the how of knowing. Science is essentially the consistent application of reason to the study of nature. Scientists publish their work and their evidence and also the methodology that they use. You are free to examine it. You may have to educate yourself in order to understand it but education is a good thing.

Science is inherently self correcting. Believe me if any scientist publishes his work and gets something wrong, other scientists will point it out in short order.

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24-03-2017, 12:22 AM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(23-03-2017 02:42 PM)kim Wrote:  
(23-03-2017 02:15 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I appreciate your reply, Kim. I guess time will tell if Menji returns and responds to these 50+ posts. I don't know for certain if he is sincere, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because you presented a sound defense. Thanks.

Sorry - I'm not jumping on you personally, Will. It's just that lately, I've noticed, many here seem ready to confront every newcomer with a guilty until proven innocent attitude.

It's only been three days. I make posts I forget about for months.

Maybe Menji actually has a life. The nerve of him. Dodgy

Yeah, I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt so as not to drive off genuine people. If it turns out to be a troll, no harm done.

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24-03-2017, 03:30 AM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
If you went to 5000 different hospitals around the world to have your blood tested and they all, independently returned with the same results, then you can either trust those results or you can engage in a grand conspiracy that every hospital is working together to give you the same false information.

The funny thing is though...
That's what religions do.
They work together to give you the same false information.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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24-03-2017, 04:01 AM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
That's why I am concerned that every person who puts forward the idea that "faith" is a good way of finding truth, from whatever religion, is lending support to the dangerous ideas that come out of it.

It's fundamentally anti-science, and anti-reality.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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