How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
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24-03-2017, 05:13 AM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(24-03-2017 04:01 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  That's why I am concerned that every person who puts forward the idea that "faith" is a good way of finding truth, from whatever religion, is lending support to the dangerous ideas that come out of it.

It's fundamentally anti-science, and anti-reality.

If you believe hard enough then it will come true. Seductive idea. If it doesn't come true clearly you didn't believe enough.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-03-2017, 05:17 AM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(24-03-2017 05:13 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(24-03-2017 04:01 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  That's why I am concerned that every person who puts forward the idea that "faith" is a good way of finding truth, from whatever religion, is lending support to the dangerous ideas that come out of it.

It's fundamentally anti-science, and anti-reality.

If you believe hard enough then it will come true. Seductive idea. If it doesn't come true clearly you didn't believe enough.

That's why I am still single.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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24-03-2017, 05:33 AM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(24-03-2017 05:17 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(24-03-2017 05:13 AM)morondog Wrote:  If you believe hard enough then it will come true. Seductive idea. If it doesn't come true clearly you didn't believe enough.

That's why I am still single.

I was once extremely single, I feel your pain. Dating has rules which are possible to learn. Socialising in general, in fact. Once I realised that, I eventually got the hang of it. Give it a go Smile As with religion, so with dating. Prayer doesn't get you very far...

Sorry if that sounds dickish. Just a thought.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-03-2017, 05:59 AM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(21-03-2017 06:46 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 06:33 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I'd actually bet that he/she is trolling but the question is common so it's good for lurkers to see how wrong it is.

Hypothesis: water expands when frozen.

Experiment: Fill a plastic soda bottle with water and place it in the freezer.

People that think there's faith and/or magic involved are just dumb. Laugh out load

"Hate to say this, but you have ice giants in your freezer. Best bet is to replace it. I have a friend who sells those, I can ask him to cut you a deal if you want. We'll haul the old one way for free."

Consider
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24-03-2017, 10:13 AM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(20-03-2017 10:06 PM)Menji Wrote:  "How do you really know that scientific evidence is a fact? Yes we know the earth is round, not flat. But how do you know? You just took the word from scientist or science books or even science teacher in your elementary school. But you, yourself, doesn't not see the real evidence. That's sounds like believing to me. You believe in science, and despite you don't see the actual evidence, you just take the word from scientists. No different like us, the believer, take the word from priests."

Facts are facts. They are things that are known to be true. Science is a method of determining how and why things are the way they are. Scientific evidence is evidence that has been determined through scientific method.

Let's say you go to the store, buy a couple of annual flowers one white and one red and plant them in your garden. Over the course of the season the birds and the bees do their thing and your flowers go seed. The next year when the flowers come back up you get some red flowers, some white flowers and some pink flowers.

You wonder where the pink flowers came from. You have a hypothesis that crossing a red flower with a white flower produces a pink flower, but are the pink flowers really a cross between the red and white flowers, or is some bird fucking with you by dropping pink flower seeds in your garden? So you decide to do an experiment and find out.

You carefully isolate some red, some white and some pink flowers from each other. Then you artificially inseminate them. Red with red, red with white, white with white red with pink, white with pink and pink with pink. You record the results of the pairings.

Red/Red pairings only produce red flowers.
White/White pairings only produce white flowers.
Red/White pairings only produce pink flowers.
Red/Pink pairings produce both red and pink flowers.
White/Pink pairings produce both white and pink flowers.
Pink/Pink pairings produce some red, some white and some pink flowers.

You can repeat this experiment again and again across successive generations and get the same results.

The red flowers, white flowers and pink flowers are facts. There they are you can see them, feel them and smell them. Which combinations of colors produce which colors are also facts. This second set of facts was determined via observations of controlled repeatable experimentation. You could call these scientific facts.

Based on your limited observations the facts have confirmed your hypothesis. Crossing red flowers with white flowers produces pink flowers. Your hypothesis has now graduated from hypothesis to confirmed theory. It has become a fact.

You also now have more information that you can use to further develop your hypothesis. You can say that red flowers only have red heritable traits and white flowers only have white heritable traits, but pink flowers have both red and white heritable traits. These are also facts, but they are facts that are restrained by your observations of a limited data set. You have only been looking variants of a single species. Variants of a species with codominant genes for flower color.

If you add red and white variants of another species, a species with a dominate red allele and a recessive white allele you won't get any pink offspring. Instead you get:

White/White pairings that only produce white flowers.
Some Red/Red pairings that only produce red flowers.
Some Red/Red pairings that produce both red and white flowers.
Some Red/White pairings that only produce red flowers.
Some Red/White pairings that produce both red and white flowers.

Now you will need a new hypothesis as to why this happens. You will need to test it repeatedly to confirm your results, and you will need to modify your theory to account for your new observations.

Science isn't always right, but the scientific process is designed to be self correcting. This is why scientific evidence is more trustworthy than faith alone. Take for example the theory of evolution. Evolution is an observed fact. Changes in the frequency of alleles within a population over time has been observed again and again. There is no argument that biological evolution happens. It does.

Many theists won't accept the common descent part of the theory of evolution because it conflicts with their interpretation of their religious dogma. But evidence, i.e. facts, that disprove common descent are hard to come by. It is supported by multiple lines of evidence across multiple disciplines of science. There are no know facts currently available that disprove it.

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24-03-2017, 05:06 PM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(23-03-2017 02:02 PM)kim Wrote:  Menji is Indonesian. In his intro thread he was quite forthcoming: Most of our people are Muslims, followed by Christians and Catholic. I knew there's some atheist community right here, but I don't think their vision fit with my perspective, most of atheist right here just jump on hard arguments and never listens, same like fundamental theists never listen to our logic.
A little off the main point here, but I just want to mention that a very close friend of mine (American) is very involved with things Indonesian, and married an Indonesian woman several years ago. While there is no official "state religion" in Indonesia, if you want to get any sort of official document -- like a passport or a marriage license -- you have to answer a question which requires selection from one of six religions categories. "None" is not one of them. In order to marry his wife, my atheist friend had to declare a religion, so he chose Islam, that being the majority in the country.

Had he been doing this today, rather than 8 years ago, he might have thought twice about that choice, and whether it might keep him from returning to his country.

Oh, and just for the record, Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. Despite what some non-Catholic Christians sometimes assert to the contrary.

Anyway, I can see where being an open atheist might be a bit challenging for an Indonesian.

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30-03-2017, 10:24 PM (This post was last modified: 30-03-2017 10:28 PM by Jack Hammer.)
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
Menji said,

Quote:Okay. I have been an non-believer almost a year now. It's a long process and I cannot really pinpoint the reason of my deconversion. But surely, other than justice and the bible itself, science took a great part in my reasoning.

If it takes science to figure out the things we see in the earth, sea, sky, and universe, then it must have been science that created it.
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31-03-2017, 01:29 AM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(30-03-2017 10:24 PM)Jack Hammer Wrote:  Menji said,

Quote:Okay. I have been an non-believer almost a year now. It's a long process and I cannot really pinpoint the reason of my deconversion. But surely, other than justice and the bible itself, science took a great part in my reasoning.

If it takes science to figure out the things we see in the earth, sea, sky, and universe, then it must have been science that created it.

Are you trolling or just dumb? Facepalm

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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31-03-2017, 02:09 AM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
Not sure if this has been mentioned already, but I believe a scientific theory is also called a scientific fact. It's the closest we can get to the actual facts about reality at any given time.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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31-03-2017, 05:26 AM
RE: How we do know that scientific evidence is a fact?
(30-03-2017 10:24 PM)Jack Hammer Wrote:  Menji said,

Quote:Okay. I have been an non-believer almost a year now. It's a long process and I cannot really pinpoint the reason of my deconversion. But surely, other than justice and the bible itself, science took a great part in my reasoning.

If it takes science to figure out the things we see in the earth, sea, sky, and universe, then it must have been science that created it.

Clarify please. Taken at face value, your statement is a non-sequitur.

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