How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
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28-11-2014, 01:46 PM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(28-11-2014 10:36 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(28-11-2014 10:13 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  Well yes....IT IS necessary to have an explanation for our reality. Why wouldn't it be ? If someone left you a $100 bill taped to your cars steering wheel, would that not cause some degree of inquiry as to who did it and for what reason ? Sure it would. Only when we start considering the Cosmos and the scientifically verified Fine Tuning of it for our life on earth...suddenly it doesn't matter anymore because of the implications to us.

Yes, there MUST be a reason for ANYTHING coming into existence when it didn't have to, and, it coming from nothing . And, there IS a reason for every event including all of the ones you listed . But what occurs with the Atheist is that he takes on a 'whatever' defeatist attitude concerning the Cosmos and Reality and chooses a state of willful ignorance (not stupidity) but not wanting to acquire the knowledge or reason behind things --- that is really quite pitiful . So , why do u supposed that your typical Atheist isn't really interested, doesn't have much of an inquiring Mind for the weightier issues of life, tries to blow everything off to an accidental natural event when only intelligent input can satisfy something, and essentially takes everything for granted on the grander scheme of things ? How did you personally get into this doldrum way of thinking if I may ask ? Did your Parents pass this along to you perhaps, or did you become upset with God over something dear to you, or have you succumbed to never allowing anyone to have authority with your life for instance ? Thanks.

You ever consider maybe there isn't a reason? Maybe it is just chance and circumstance? Since we have zero evidence for this god you talk about, and we HAVE evidence of chance and circumstance, which one seems more reasonable? Since we can observe evolution ongoing right now, and prove its existence, or on the other hand we can play the game "pick the delusion" and decide which of the over 4500 man made religions to follow.

But see here is where the true philosophical separation begins...you choose to believe it because, and correct me if I am wrong, the bible tells you so, or....the complexity of the world is so...complex, thus = GOD!....or as I call it the GODDIDIT excuse. We don't understand so GOD. But when you consider this GOD theory was man created also, and all of the fictional stories of the bible can be disproven, and the fact that no one who ever wrote about jesus knew him, and that most likely the jesus myth was constructed based on older myths, like ROMULUS....then a thinking person would surmise it is all rubbish. You keep dodging my question on your faith basis...YEC, or OEC, or a hybrid of such....so I can enter an intellectual discussion aimed at the language you work with.

There are many reasons why people are atheist. Some just choose to not believe because it sounds ridiculous, just like some believers just choose to believe (blind faith). Some of us, like myself, have given it considerable thought, and are highly educated in the subject. It is this introspective reflection and understanding of science, evolution, philosophy and forensic analysis of the story that brought us to atheism. I, on the other hand, and like many here, was a Xtian at one point. I was brought up within the delusion, and at one point sought to get an education in theology in order to substantiate and validate my faith, and in the process the opposite happened. The more you learn about the myth, the fabrication, and the forgery, the less you believe.

Since you ask, I will give you an honest answer..

I guess I can say I understand loss. I lost two daughters at the toddler age. At the time I was a christian, the son of a southern baptist minister, and have never prayed so hard as I did during that time. I cried, I prayed, I begged to be taken instead, they died, then my wife committed suicide 3 months later, and I lost everything that mattered in my life....This isn't the reason I am an atheist now, I am an atheist now because that event, that life experience gave me the need to understand WHY. So I asked my pastors, my parents, other church leaders, and found the answers most unsatisfactory. So rather than sponging up everything that fell out of their mouth as the truth, I started a journey of epistemology, the study of knowledge. I read the bible, and again, read other versions, other religion's holy books, then got into philosophy, biblical history, who wrote the bible and why? Who put it together? What are the FACTS and what is fiction, what is history and what is a parable......the more I learned, the less I believed. I had actually started this journey attempting to solidify my faith and get the facts I needed to override my inner doubts, and the opposite happened. The more I found out about the community writings under known authors (pseudepigrapha), the forgeries, the exaggerations, then it made me turn a critical eye to it all.

I would give anything to hold my daughters again, but I have learned too much, been exposed to historical facts, reason and logic...and my heart has given up on ever seeing them again. I realize the importance religion and faith has on people, I truly do. It is a comfort, an emotional and spiritual security blanket, a made-up answer to the big questions we don't know the answers to, and still don't. We may never know the answers, I surely don't have them, I just know that the anthropocentric abrahamic faiths don't have the answer either..... Because the whole thing is based on a book that is too easily discredited and disproven, whole books made up and written YEARS after the alleged author died, or by people who write it based on the oral retelling of a story passed down through years with zero collaborating evidence. The story of jesus has zero evidence of any kind, zero, and no one who wrote of him knew him...all based on oral tradition...stories passed down...people like to tell stories don't they? What makes a good story better? exaggeration.

It is frightening to think we are here by chance, what is the purpose of life? Are we just smart bugs running around for a life cycle; eat, breed, die and repeat? How awful is that? It is comforting to think of "god" looking down at us, worrying about 8 billion+ little lives scurrying around on this planet, created to worship him or die eternally in hell, or so the story goes.

My progression to atheism has surprisingly brought me a lot of peace. I no longer have the inner guilt of did this happen because I am a sinner, or because I am unworthy or whatever religious based, subjugating mind rape concept put out by the church....the thought that maybe I didn't pray hard enough, or maybe god was displeased with me and let them die etc. etc., all of that nonsense is washed away with the understanding that life isn't predestined, there is no grand plan, there is no god playing...well god....and worrying about paying back my "born-as-a-sinner-and owing-god-for-life" slavery contract with the Christian god. All that needless, worthless, bowing and scraping hoping we earn god's approval to live in a paradise forever...upon death. Sounds like a made up concept to comfort those dying doesn't it?...Because it is. I wish I could describe to you the peace that knowledge and freedom from religious dogma has given me. My life is full, happy and rewarding. I have been able to move on, one day at a time, and while I wish I could believe that someday I could see them again, I am okay with knowing that they suffer no more, and are in eternal rest...and I know that to believe in a supernatural afterlife is just my inner insecurity and fear making me want to accept the impossible, the improbable, the imaginary...as a comfort. I am better than that, I don't need to allow fear to dominate my life and force me to believe or pretend to believe in the supernatural. Humans fear death, this is natural, humans die, this is natural, all life on this planet will someday cease, this is natural, this planet is slowly dying, this is natural, and not I would think by design.....and I am okay with that.

In my opinion, religion thrives because of fear; it plays on our fears of the unknown and manipulates that fear into quite the thriving business. Emotional, spiritual and financial slavery, all with the, "Don't question it because it is in this book, believe or spend eternity in hell" salesmanship. Greatest pyramid scheme ever, money goes up; nothing of intrinsic value comes down...except fear based comfort. What is right for one person, doesn't work for another. What is needed for one person isn't needed by another. My daughters died in 1998 and I still think about them, but I am no longer devastated. I am at peace, knowledge gives you that, not faith….the belief in something without evidence.

Faith IS the delusion, belief without evidence. Faith is pretending to know things that you dont know. To say "I have faith in god" really means "I pretend to know things I don't know about god"....THINK about it, you dont know, you HOPE.

GWG he’s never going to answer you. He’s perfectly illustrated by Charles Durning’s character in this great bit from the Best Little Whorehouse in Texas.




“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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28-11-2014, 01:47 PM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(28-11-2014 01:23 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(28-11-2014 12:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yabut, atheists don't have souls - it's a well-known fact. Yes

Not true, Chas. I have several Drinking Beverage
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Have you tried to steal mine? Consider

You've already stolen my heart. Weeping

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-11-2014, 01:52 PM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(28-11-2014 01:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-11-2014 01:23 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  Not true, Chas. I have several Drinking Beverage
[Image: myth-gingers-dont-have-souls.jpg]

Have you tried to steal mine? Consider

You've already stolen my heart. Weeping

Jassus, the old man is moved to poetry. SMerc's hot property...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-11-2014, 01:55 PM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(28-11-2014 01:23 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(28-11-2014 12:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yabut, atheists don't have souls - it's a well-known fact. Yes

Not true, Chas. I have several Drinking Beverage
[Image: myth-gingers-dont-have-souls.jpg]

So miss Ginger, you are making me think things Heart

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28-11-2014, 02:00 PM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
LOL This thread is derailing. Tongue

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28-11-2014, 02:06 PM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(28-11-2014 11:34 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-11-2014 10:39 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  Two parts --------

1. It is not incoherent for a First Cause to create something . Here on Earth, every THING or EVENT that occurs has a First Cause or reason for it . So why doesn't the whole Shebang of the Cosmos have a First Cause to it ; it came into existence from nothing including time, space, matter, laws to govern it, fine tuned life enabling parameters . What is it about a personal Theistic Creator that rubs you up the wrong way then ? Would you be ok with him existing ?

1.a. True, the First Cause of anything which has personal effects that we can observe, measure, discern MUST be Personal itself . Are you troubled with a Creator who is PERSONAL then ?

1.b. True, the First Cause of anything that comes to exist when it didn't have to, has a Will as well. That is, the First Cause has the ability to CHOOSE what he wants to exist and what he doesn't . We have free Will and other NON material entities....because the First Cause of everything does too. If you cant accept that, then tell us how FreeWill, emotions, love, abstract thinking, reason and logic came from pure material atoms ? You cant because its absurd.

2. ONLY a finite act, carries with it an endpoint ; but if something as our Universe is the FIRST ACT which came from nothing, then there must be a Cause outside of the first finite act (event) . Every Cosmologist knows this so its either : We got our Universe which has boundless examples of design, engineering, personal attributes that are discoverable ...from a First Cause having the same personal intelligent attributes we contain....or.....Nothing produced something as our Universe from nothing (the height of absurdity) . Matter or energy isn't the First Cause because it hadn't come into existence yet either. A blind random Force of some kind isn't the First Cause because a Force isn't personal nor it is intelligent with a will .

I don't 'invoke' a God as a Gap measure ; I show why a personal intelligent Theistic Creator (viz God) is absolutely necessary as the First Cause --- not because its emotionally satisfying to me or that I need a crutch . Conversely, the person who demands he stays an 'Atheist' has the Reverse God of the Gaps creed where he/she must never allow a Divine First Cause thru the door and demands Natural Causes be responsible for highly personal and intelligent Effects. That's not right and its disingenuous. This is why Atheism is illogical unreasonable and why I had to get out of it even though it was highly conducive to my choice of lifestyles I wanted to pursue for personal gratification.

No. No. No, and no. You do nothing of the sort. You CLAIM you do. In fact you do NOTHING.

You do invoke god as a gap measure, as you have no other explanation, as you have repeatedly demonstrated, and your refusal to even look at Chaos Theory. You "show" nothing. You think you do, because you are SO ignorant. You THINK you do, because you are suffering from :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%...ger_effect
You NEED, an answer TODAY, like a child, (one of your many psychological problems). You're like a 2 year old asking "but why, but why but why" to its mommy.

1. Your analogy is false. "Here on Earth" is not what we are talking about. For "cause and effect" you need spacetime, and the laws OF THIS UNIVERSE already in place. You cannot generalize to what was EXTERNAL to this universe from what is IN the universe. You logic is fatally flawed in that regard.
William L. Craig was schooled about this, and had no response to it, in the debate with Dr. Sean Carroll. Watch it and learn something. YOU know NOTHING about what cosmologists think or do not think. You CLAIM you do. In fact it's very clear you have NO education, AT ALL.

2. "First Cause" arguments are not "Final Cause" arguments, or "ultimate cause" arguments They are "nearest cause" (or "proximate cause" arguments). There is no reason an omnipotent god could not have made a race of robot universe makers, and one of THEM was your "cause". "Cause" requires TIME. The decision to create must precede the act. YOU have no proof spacetime exists outside this universe, or did. Your "gap" argument assumes it, for no reason. How can a god "cause' Causality (the principle) unless Causality is in place already ? Try harder. you failed in every way possible.

All you do is repeat all the crap and tripe nonsense you have learned by rote. Repeating crap (with no PROOF for any of it), does not make it something other than crap. All you have is crap. Repeated crap, with no proofs. You fail at Apologetics. Badly. Why are you here making a fool of yourself / Did someone tell you you are any good at this ? You're REALLY REALLY bad at this. You need help.

"ONLY a finite act, carries with it an endpoint ; but if something as our Universe is the FIRST ACT which came from nothing, then there must be a Cause outside of the first finite act (event) .
1. That sentence is a non-sequitur. You need a. and English class, and b. a Logic course.
2. You totally MISSED THE POINT : The POINT is not the infinity of the ACT, but the GOD performing it. Since YOU MISSED the point, you utterly failed to answer the question.
3. There is no "outside" anything if space time does not exist already. "outside" is a spatial reference.
4. Reality (Relativity, Uncertainty) has been proven to be non-intuitive. All your arguments assume the universe and Reality is intuitive to human brains. You don't know it isn't as you have no education, AT ALL.


Again, I don't 'invoke God' ; I look at our Creation which consists of distinct observable examples of great personal and intelligent effects and conclude that ONLY a MIND behind such things makes it possible . Such things don't come from a non Mind , non intelligence, non Will, and by accidental Source . What you do is invoke Natural Causes as an explanation for everything based on your established apriori commitment to Atheism . Its like a round peg in a square hole but youll bang it in even if it your finished product (philosophy) looks and sound absurd. Its the Reverse God of the Gaps .

Your hatred and hostility is noted and its a veil that covers your eyes and Mind. You think you operate on sound logic and reason, but, actually its a façade to keep you enslaved to a purposeful bias . The motive being you don't want the Creator of the Cosmos to OWN you (which he does in any case) . To try to get around this, you develop lame excuses, name calling, and any other unbecoming Behavior as a protection shield . Put down the Shield, Veil, and hubris and invite the Creator who is the Creator of your Soul into your life . Embrace him and youll find a life of great purpose fulfillment and wonder instead of needing to take our wonderful Creation for granted and being willfully ignorant about the magnificence and awesome displays from a Majestic Creator who is endless in creativity.
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28-11-2014, 02:15 PM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(28-11-2014 02:06 PM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  
(28-11-2014 11:34 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No. No. No, and no. You do nothing of the sort. You CLAIM you do. In fact you do NOTHING.

You do invoke god as a gap measure, as you have no other explanation, as you have repeatedly demonstrated, and your refusal to even look at Chaos Theory. You "show" nothing. You think you do, because you are SO ignorant. You THINK you do, because you are suffering from :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%...ger_effect
You NEED, an answer TODAY, like a child, (one of your many psychological problems). You're like a 2 year old asking "but why, but why but why" to its mommy.

1. Your analogy is false. "Here on Earth" is not what we are talking about. For "cause and effect" you need spacetime, and the laws OF THIS UNIVERSE already in place. You cannot generalize to what was EXTERNAL to this universe from what is IN the universe. You logic is fatally flawed in that regard.
William L. Craig was schooled about this, and had no response to it, in the debate with Dr. Sean Carroll. Watch it and learn something. YOU know NOTHING about what cosmologists think or do not think. You CLAIM you do. In fact it's very clear you have NO education, AT ALL.

2. "First Cause" arguments are not "Final Cause" arguments, or "ultimate cause" arguments They are "nearest cause" (or "proximate cause" arguments). There is no reason an omnipotent god could not have made a race of robot universe makers, and one of THEM was your "cause". "Cause" requires TIME. The decision to create must precede the act. YOU have no proof spacetime exists outside this universe, or did. Your "gap" argument assumes it, for no reason. How can a god "cause' Causality (the principle) unless Causality is in place already ? Try harder. you failed in every way possible.

All you do is repeat all the crap and tripe nonsense you have learned by rote. Repeating crap (with no PROOF for any of it), does not make it something other than crap. All you have is crap. Repeated crap, with no proofs. You fail at Apologetics. Badly. Why are you here making a fool of yourself / Did someone tell you you are any good at this ? You're REALLY REALLY bad at this. You need help.

"ONLY a finite act, carries with it an endpoint ; but if something as our Universe is the FIRST ACT which came from nothing, then there must be a Cause outside of the first finite act (event) .
1. That sentence is a non-sequitur. You need a. and English class, and b. a Logic course.
2. You totally MISSED THE POINT : The POINT is not the infinity of the ACT, but the GOD performing it. Since YOU MISSED the point, you utterly failed to answer the question.
3. There is no "outside" anything if space time does not exist already. "outside" is a spatial reference.
4. Reality (Relativity, Uncertainty) has been proven to be non-intuitive. All your arguments assume the universe and Reality is intuitive to human brains. You don't know it isn't as you have no education, AT ALL.


Again, I don't 'invoke God' ; I look at our Creation which consists of distinct observable examples of great personal and intelligent effects and conclude that ONLY a MIND behind such things makes it possible . Such things don't come from a non Mind , non intelligence, non Will, and by accidental Source . What you do is invoke Natural Causes as an explanation for everything based on your established apriori commitment to Atheism . Its like a round peg in a square hole but youll bang it in even if it your finished product (philosophy) looks and sound absurd. Its the Reverse God of the Gaps .

Your hatred and hostility is noted and its a veil that covers your eyes and Mind. You think you operate on sound logic and reason, but, actually its a façade to keep you enslaved to a purposeful bias . The motive being you don't want the Creator of the Cosmos to OWN you (which he does in any case) . To try to get around this, you develop lame excuses, name calling, and any other unbecoming Behavior as a protection shield . Put down the Shield, Veil, and hubris and invite the Creator who is the Creator of your Soul into your life . Embrace him and youll find a life of great purpose fulfillment and wonder instead of needing to take our wonderful Creation for granted and being willfully ignorant about the magnificence and awesome displays from a Majestic Creator who is endless in creativity.

All these things can arise, given enough time spontaneously, given what we know about this universe. You DO "invoke god" because you are SO ignorant of science that you have no other answer. YOU PRESUME it was a god, as you have no other option, and you NEED and answer today, because you are nuts.

You JUDGE because you think you are special. Jebus told you not to do that. You a bad boy. You don't know anyone here from Adam. You PRESUME you know people's motives.

Seth set up TTA as a community for non-believers. Not a place so people like you can free-load, and opportunistically preach and spam us with your ignorant Presuppositionalist garbage.

God is not a "he". God is a "she" She had her weeny cut off, and had a sex change.

Can't you go take a class and learn something before you think you're up to this task, which clearly you aren't ? Not one person here has taken one thing you've said seriously, you old fool.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-11-2014, 02:21 PM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(28-11-2014 02:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-11-2014 02:06 PM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  Again, I don't 'invoke God' ; I look at our Creation which consists of distinct observable examples of great personal and intelligent effects and conclude that ONLY a MIND behind such things makes it possible . Such things don't come from a non Mind , non intelligence, non Will, and by accidental Source . What you do is invoke Natural Causes as an explanation for everything based on your established apriori commitment to Atheism . Its like a round peg in a square hole but youll bang it in even if it your finished product (philosophy) looks and sound absurd. Its the Reverse God of the Gaps .

Your hatred and hostility is noted and its a veil that covers your eyes and Mind. You think you operate on sound logic and reason, but, actually its a façade to keep you enslaved to a purposeful bias . The motive being you don't want the Creator of the Cosmos to OWN you (which he does in any case) . To try to get around this, you develop lame excuses, name calling, and any other unbecoming Behavior as a protection shield . Put down the Shield, Veil, and hubris and invite the Creator who is the Creator of your Soul into your life . Embrace him and youll find a life of great purpose fulfillment and wonder instead of needing to take our wonderful Creation for granted and being willfully ignorant about the magnificence and awesome displays from a Majestic Creator who is endless in creativity.

All these things can arise, given enough time spontaneously, given what we know about this universe. You DO "invoke god" because you are SO ignorant of science that you have no other answer. YOU PRESUME it was a god, as you have no other option, and you NEED and answer today, because you are nuts.

You JUDGE because you think you are special. Jebus told you not to do that. You a bad boy. You don't know anyone here from Adam. You PRESUME you know people's motives.

Seth set up TTA as a community for non-believers. Not a place so people like you can free-load, and opportunistically preach and spam us with your ignorant Presuppositionalist garbage.

God is not a "he". God is a "she" She had her weeny cut off, and had a sex change.

Can't you go take a class and learn something before you think you're up to this task, which clearly you aren't ? Not one person here has taken one thing you've said seriously, you old fool.

No Maam, im not ignorant of real Science but you are brainwashed on pseudo-science . Psuedo Science doesn't even meet the requirements and definition of Science . All it is is unsupportive speculations, unproven THEORIES , and the imaginations of Minds that go way beyond the reality we have to deal with. In short, a conglomeration of fine sounding arguments to help jettison the only thing that truly makes sense based on what we have and what we do know.

Lastly, do you have to appeal to puerile language such as 'weenie' and other grade school immaturity ? How come the Atheist Community is so inundated with this type of immature rhetoric ?
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28-11-2014, 02:27 PM (This post was last modified: 28-11-2014 02:32 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(28-11-2014 02:00 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  LOL This thread is derailing. Tongue

Ya think? I need your help, troll needs to stop being fed, redheads work for me. Drooling

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28-11-2014, 02:31 PM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(28-11-2014 02:21 PM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  Psuedo Science doesn't even meet the requirements and definition of Science . All it is is unsupportive speculations, unproven THEORIES ,
Unproven theories....
Me thinks you don't know what that word means in the context of science. Yes

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