How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
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26-11-2014, 09:32 AM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(25-11-2014 02:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-11-2014 11:36 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  'WE DONT KNOW' was your frequent response ,

Yes, because that is an honest answer.

Quote:yet you DO know that there isn't/cant be any personal theistic intelligent Creator for what we have

Except I never claimed that, did I? Nope. Drinking Beverage
I don't believe in any gods because there is no evidence of anything beyond a naturalistic universe.

Quote:which sure doesn't resemble the atheistic worldview/origins of chaos, haphazard looking effects , accidental compilations of atoms ad nauseum , thrown-together non design, and non suitability for human life --- that's what we should expect from a non-personal / non intelligent / non willed Universe that hasn't a shred of reason or purpose and that occurred 'accidentally' .

Your lack of knowledge of physics, chemistry, mathematics, biology, geology, etc. is manifest in that string of inchoate concepts.

Quote:Perhaps you should rethink your Reverse God of the Gaps creed : "The supernatural doesn't exist (or if it does, it certainly had nothing to do with fashioning a personal Universe and creating life from non-life), therefore some natural process must have caused a personal Universe and caused life to come from non-life.'

Theres no evidence beyond a naturalistic universe ?! Then :

Tell us how the animate came from the inaminate / how established unchanging laws of physics came about naturally / how the life enabling anthropic parameters came about naturally / how consciousness came from material atoms / why the universe exists when it didn't have to / and I could on and on. Do u believe Mt. Rushmore faces of the presidents is far less complex than our entire cosmos ? If so, it should be far far far easier for Mt. Rushmore to come about from natural means such as sun, rain, mudslides, and winds --- how come you don't believe THAT ? The bottom line is this and I too found it necessary back when I wanted to be an atheist : We will make all kinds of incredulous excuses for jettisoning the Creator because of the personal implications of him existing. Namely, moral accountability in the final analysis. Instead, he gives us a way out of willfully deceiving ourselves by offering complete forgiveness and excusing us of our many accumulated sins thru his mercy and love for us ; but no, we don't want that cause we want to live as we like . If you can get beyond SELF , then theres a whole new different better way of doing life which involves a great relationship with your Creator culminating in a wonderful eternity with God because you got beyond yourself and dealt with your personal sin properly. Its yours for the taking.

There is no evidence of the supernatural so science operates on methodological naturalism.
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26-11-2014, 09:35 AM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
Hello! Big Grin

Getting the 'quote' things right is a real bugger, hey?

Looking forwards to your edited/fixed reply.

Much cheers to all.
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26-11-2014, 09:47 AM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(26-11-2014 09:32 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  Theres no evidence beyond a naturalistic universe ?! Then :

Tell us how the animate came from the inaminate / how established unchanging laws of physics came about naturally / how the life enabling anthropic parameters came about naturally / how consciousness came from material atoms / why the universe exists when it didn't have to / and I could on and on.


God of the gaps. Every single one of these. You're taking an unanswered question and assuming a lack of an answer leads to God.

I thought you said earlier you had evidence that wasn't circular and presuppositional...


(26-11-2014 09:32 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  Do u believe Mt. Rushmore faces of the presidents is far less complex than our entire cosmos ? If so, it should be far far far easier for Mt. Rushmore to come about from natural means such as sun, rain, mudslides, and winds --- how come you don't believe THAT ?

Actually, that could be possible. I don't believe that it did happen because I haven't seen it, but strictly speaking, it's entirely possible that some rock formation on another planet has an eerie resemblance to Mt. Rushmore. Iterative probability works like that. You see it as impossible for Earth to be "finely tuned" randomly, yet, you're ignoring the billions and billions of planets that aren't finely tuned.

It's like assuming the person who one the lottery must have cheated because the odds were so stacked against him while ignoring the millions of players who lost.


(26-11-2014 09:32 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  The bottom line is this and I too found it necessary back when I wanted to be an atheist : We will make all kinds of incredulous excuses for jettisoning the Creator because of the personal implications of him existing. Namely, moral accountability in the final analysis. Instead, he gives us a way out of willfully deceiving ourselves by offering complete forgiveness and excusing us of our many accumulated sins thru his mercy and love for us ; but no, we don't want that cause we want to live as we like .

Sounds like that issue could have been fixed with you actually trying to learn science as opposed to trying to rationalize atheism through theistic goggles. It never works. I used to say the same kinds of silly things when I was Christian.

Until you're actually willing to view the world without presupposing the existence of a god, you won't be able to see anything else. It affects how you view everything.


(26-11-2014 09:32 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  If you can get beyond SELF , then theres a whole new different better way of doing life which involves a great relationship with your Creator culminating in a wonderful eternity with God because you got beyond yourself and dealt with your personal sin properly. Its yours for the taking.

Wow, now you just changed the subject totally. You went from trying to give evidence for a creator-god (that all happened to be presuppositional) to talking about a more specific god with whom we should be having a relationship. You're jumping too far from your premise to your conclusion.

Please, demonstrate that this actually is mine for the taking. How do I know this god exists?
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26-11-2014, 10:24 AM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(26-11-2014 09:35 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Hello! Big Grin

Getting the 'quote' things right is a real bugger, hey?

Looking forwards to your edited/fixed reply.

Much cheers to all.

It was posted in full and correctly, but it didn't appear so afterward. Doesn't really matter, since you've already got your mind made up in the impossibility of occurring (Natural accidental causes plus atoms plus time = A remarkable display of highly personal, highly intelligent based entities in a Universe perfect for Human Life) . The epitomie of arrogance that is so comfortable .
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26-11-2014, 10:26 AM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
You have labeled your self humble which is ironically an arrogant thing to do.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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26-11-2014, 10:31 AM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(26-11-2014 09:47 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(26-11-2014 09:32 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  Theres no evidence beyond a naturalistic universe ?! Then :

Tell us how the animate came from the inaminate / how established unchanging laws of physics came about naturally / how the life enabling anthropic parameters came about naturally / how consciousness came from material atoms / why the universe exists when it didn't have to / and I could on and on.


God of the gaps. Every single one of these. You're taking an unanswered question and assuming a lack of an answer leads to God.

I thought you said earlier you had evidence that wasn't circular and presuppositional...


(26-11-2014 09:32 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  Do u believe Mt. Rushmore faces of the presidents is far less complex than our entire cosmos ? If so, it should be far far far easier for Mt. Rushmore to come about from natural means such as sun, rain, mudslides, and winds --- how come you don't believe THAT ?

Actually, that could be possible. I don't believe that it did happen because I haven't seen it, but strictly speaking, it's entirely possible that some rock formation on another planet has an eerie resemblance to Mt. Rushmore. Iterative probability works like that. You see it as impossible for Earth to be "finely tuned" randomly, yet, you're ignoring the billions and billions of planets that aren't finely tuned.

It's like assuming the person who one the lottery must have cheated because the odds were so stacked against him while ignoring the millions of players who lost.


(26-11-2014 09:32 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  The bottom line is this and I too found it necessary back when I wanted to be an atheist : We will make all kinds of incredulous excuses for jettisoning the Creator because of the personal implications of him existing. Namely, moral accountability in the final analysis. Instead, he gives us a way out of willfully deceiving ourselves by offering complete forgiveness and excusing us of our many accumulated sins thru his mercy and love for us ; but no, we don't want that cause we want to live as we like .

Sounds like that issue could have been fixed with you actually trying to learn science as opposed to trying to rationalize atheism through theistic goggles. It never works. I used to say the same kinds of silly things when I was Christian.

Until you're actually willing to view the world without presupposing the existence of a god, you won't be able to see anything else. It affects how you view everything.


(26-11-2014 09:32 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  If you can get beyond SELF , then theres a whole new different better way of doing life which involves a great relationship with your Creator culminating in a wonderful eternity with God because you got beyond yourself and dealt with your personal sin properly. Its yours for the taking.

Wow, now you just changed the subject totally. You went from trying to give evidence for a creator-god (that all happened to be presuppositional) to talking about a more specific god with whom we should be having a relationship. You're jumping too far from your premise to your conclusion.

Please, demonstrate that this actually is mine for the taking. How do I know this god exists?

You know this God exists from the creation effects that you can see and discover , you even know intrinsically that all of what we have isn't an accident and didn't come willy nilly without a Will and Intelligent input , you see how utterly complex your own Human Body and awareness is and know it wasn't by accident, and if you payed closer attention....youd be aware of this Creator trying to get your attention without overstepping your freewill choice. Fundamentally, this is how all of us can know. And to validate this, back when you were between 4-7 years old , you even inquired as to HOW did all this get here / WHAT does all this mean / WHERE are we going when we die , or similar to your Parents whom you trusted most.

SO, what are you going to do now ? That's the question.
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26-11-2014, 10:37 AM (This post was last modified: 26-11-2014 10:41 AM by Im a humble little Theist.)
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(26-11-2014 10:26 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  You have labeled your self humble which is ironically an arrogant thing to do.

Yes, its an oxymoron isn't it ? I did it to squelch the typical atheist who stereotypes Theists and Christians as nothing but gullible , cant think for themselves , are brainwashed by the Church or family , and just operates on circular reasoning. Our Creator can be shown to exist without even opening a religious book , from reality alone ----------- exactly as should be possible if a Creator/Designer exists and showed himself thru the leftover effects from his intricate work performed.

Test of a Worldview which Theism satisfies but Atheism cannot :

It must be :



1. Logically consistent.

2. Empirically verifiable

3. Experientially relevant



It must answer :



1. Origins ----- From where did everything come ?

2. Meaning---- What is the purpose of life ?

3. Morality ----------How should One live their life ?

4. Destiny--------What happens when a person dies and ultimately where is history going ?
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26-11-2014, 10:38 AM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(26-11-2014 10:31 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  
(26-11-2014 09:47 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  God of the gaps. Every single one of these. You're taking an unanswered question and assuming a lack of an answer leads to God.

I thought you said earlier you had evidence that wasn't circular and presuppositional...



Actually, that could be possible. I don't believe that it did happen because I haven't seen it, but strictly speaking, it's entirely possible that some rock formation on another planet has an eerie resemblance to Mt. Rushmore. Iterative probability works like that. You see it as impossible for Earth to be "finely tuned" randomly, yet, you're ignoring the billions and billions of planets that aren't finely tuned.

It's like assuming the person who one the lottery must have cheated because the odds were so stacked against him while ignoring the millions of players who lost.



Sounds like that issue could have been fixed with you actually trying to learn science as opposed to trying to rationalize atheism through theistic goggles. It never works. I used to say the same kinds of silly things when I was Christian.

Until you're actually willing to view the world without presupposing the existence of a god, you won't be able to see anything else. It affects how you view everything.



Wow, now you just changed the subject totally. You went from trying to give evidence for a creator-god (that all happened to be presuppositional) to talking about a more specific god with whom we should be having a relationship. You're jumping too far from your premise to your conclusion.

Please, demonstrate that this actually is mine for the taking. How do I know this god exists?

You know this God exists from the creation effects that you can see and discover , you even know intrinsically that all of what we have isn't an accident and didn't come willy nilly without a Will and Intelligent input , you see how utterly complex your own Human Body and awareness is and know it wasn't by accident, and if you payed closer attention....youd be aware of this Creator trying to get your attention without overstepping your freewill choice. Fundamentally, this is how all of us can know. And to validate this, back when you were between 4-7 years old , you even inquired as to HOW did all this get here / WHAT does all this mean / WHERE are we going when we die , or similar to your Parents whom you trusted most.

SO, what are you going to do now ? That's the question.

All you have done is make ignorant, unproven assertions. So we simply don't believe your warped perception of the universe and dismiss it as ignorant.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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26-11-2014, 10:44 AM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(26-11-2014 10:38 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(26-11-2014 10:31 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  You know this God exists from the creation effects that you can see and discover , you even know intrinsically that all of what we have isn't an accident and didn't come willy nilly without a Will and Intelligent input , you see how utterly complex your own Human Body and awareness is and know it wasn't by accident, and if you payed closer attention....youd be aware of this Creator trying to get your attention without overstepping your freewill choice. Fundamentally, this is how all of us can know. And to validate this, back when you were between 4-7 years old , you even inquired as to HOW did all this get here / WHAT does all this mean / WHERE are we going when we die , or similar to your Parents whom you trusted most.

SO, what are you going to do now ? That's the question.

All you have done is make ignorant, unproven assertions. So we simply don't believe your warped perception of the universe and dismiss it as ignorant.

What you mean to say is : ' I don't want to believe your assertions based on common reality because it conflicts with my personal MO for doing life so I have to dismiss it even though I claim to champion scientific inquiry (until it upsets my applecart) ' .
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26-11-2014, 10:58 AM
RE: How well can Atheistic Humanists defend their Worldview/Origins ?
(26-11-2014 10:37 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  
(26-11-2014 10:26 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  You have labeled your self humble which is ironically an arrogant thing to do.

Yes, its an oxymoron isn't it ? I did it to squelch the typical atheist who stereotypes Theists and Christians as nothing but gullible , cant think for themselves , are brainwashed by the Church or family , and just operates on circular reasoning. Our Creator can be shown to exist without even opening a religious book , from reality alone ----------- exactly as should be possible if a Creator/Designer exists and showed himself thru the leftover effects from his intricate work performed.

Test of a Worldview which Theism satisfies but Atheism cannot :

It must be :



1. Logically consistent.

2. Empirically verifiable

3. Experientially relevant



It must answer :



1. Origins ----- From where did everything come ?

2. Meaning---- What is the purpose of life ?

3. Morality ----------How should One live their life ?

4. Destiny--------What happens when a person dies and ultimately where is history going ?

Word salad at its best

1. Logically consistent.

-creationism is anything but consistent, the entire fable is wrought with inconsistencies, inaccuracies, lies, fiction, parables and allegorical writings, not to mention out right pseudepigrapha and interpolations...

2. Empirically verifiable

lol as if

3. Experientially relevant

lol as if

It must answer :



1. Origins ----- From where did everything come ?

why?

2. Meaning---- What is the purpose of life ?

why?

3. Morality ----------How should One live their life ?

its obvious

4. Destiny--------What happens when a person dies and ultimately where is history going ?

you rot

try a bit harder, you aren't very good at this

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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