How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
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18-08-2012, 05:23 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2012 05:27 PM by Luminon.)
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(18-08-2012 03:11 PM)elemts Wrote:  Although I listed them separately as, well, I could say some of my spices (nutmeg is one I believe) is a "drug", for that matter, so is water, salt.... anything under the proper dosage could cause a mind-altering effect or just a physiological effect.
Yes, nutmeg is a drug and quite a strong one though completely legal and commonly available. (may also cause abortion in huge doses, that's its historical use) The properties are said to be similar to marijuana, but much stronger and... theatral. Possibly involving uplifted mood, seeing pretty colors and hearing a nice music, that's what one my friend said.

The problem with nutmeg is, it has 3-day effect. The first day you drink the concentrated nutmeg brew (disgustingly bitter). You get high and all is beautiful and pleasant.
All the second day you sleep.
On the third day you puke all day long.
No wonder there are no addicts on nutmeg or that nutmeg is legal. This spice does its policing for itself. If someone ever figures out how to mitigate the day two and three effects, we might have a problem in our hands. Until then, it's basically once in a lifetime deal or a harmless fun for felons' long days in prison. And it leaves permanent effects, after that you can't ever eat a food with nutmeg in it.

(18-08-2012 04:14 PM)elemts Wrote:  Long story short, my entire family smoked when I was a child (5+ cartons [not packs, cartons] in the cabinet was normal at the time and I believe they were restocked about once a week). One time I had to stay awake, and bought a pack just for one, as I knew the smoke would keep me awake/alert. It did nothing for me. I had no attraction to it, no desire for another, I didn't cough, nothing. I went through the entire pack in under an hour--bought another pack and went through it in another hour (I was on a four hour road trip--it happened about 2 hours in otherwise I wouldn't have known/remember the time-frame). Nothing. I had no desire for them or anything. Not enough time to be addicted? Maybe, but then people vary; however, I also had nothing of any use to even make me want more beyond the trip. I only continued past the one because I was shocked it did nothing, and thought maybe I'd have side effects from more--but I could've just bought a straw and sucked on it. I kind of did that though--it just had a big 64oz pop attached!

Funny thing though, if I'm around people smoking menthol ones, I have to leave because my body reacts like I'm drunk and that's generally not a good thing.

I think I just happen to have a body chemistry that due to things (development/childhood/something--I also grew up with a swimming pool, and always "played" with the chlorine) I am all-but immune to different addictions that others have, because my body doesn't respond like others to it. I don't know what it feels like to be taken off something you're addicted to.
Man, you're a treasure! Like a patient zero or how do they call it in epidemiology. You should offer yourself to science to study what makes you tick, how comes you won't get addicted. That might lead to some medicine to cure addicts.

Maybe you'd appreciate my example. I did get addicted to cigarettes and very easily. I didn't get all green and sick when I should have. Cigarettes made my head spin and feel like drunk, but I actually liked that feeling. Eventually my body got used to the nicotine so the feeling disappeared, but the cigarettes still calmed me down a lot. (also helped with... digestion) Eventually I realized perhaps it was because the low nicotine level made me feel bad in the first place, which the cigarette mitigated for a while. But still, it was pretty damn pleasant and relaxing and ritualistic, I do like rituals though I have none. I stopped smoking for many reasons that made this habit unbearable, but lack of pleasure wasn't among them. For years I kept having dreams where I smoked and later I actually felt angry at myself for succumbing, even in a dream. (other ex-smokers confirmed that) I know the desire is still there and strong, only kept in check by discipline. Actually, when I'm very drunk I do smoke. I drink only socially and I'm not very social. And I'm not spontaneous either, my trouble with Asperger's syndrome taught me that if I do things spontaneously, I get in trouble. So there's this compulsive self-control that I can't get rid of either. Only strong doses of alcohol overcome that and get me spontaneous again, small doses make me sleepy. So I take alcohol as kind of a very exhausting therapy that I am only capable to undergo a couple of times per year.
As for cigarettes, I wouldn't wish anyone to try. It isn't worth of the many years of craving you get even if you stop smoking.
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18-08-2012, 05:29 PM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(18-08-2012 12:54 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Alcohol destroys whole families, I know a few of these around, for example my brothers' girlfriends come from such families.

I thought there is a correlation between substance use and intelligence and there seemed to be. But then I saw in the news how Christopher Hitchens got throat cancer, mind you, drinking and smoking together increases the risk of cancer significantly and he was quite a drinker and smoker.

That forced me to think.
Now I think that drugs are not a problem. When people are poor, uneducated, have no work, have a shitty work, have too much work, bleak and grey life, ugly urban surroundings, no achievement ahead, no future to look forward to, they get drugs and get addicted, commit crime or even become drug dealers themselves. Drug addiction is the society's way to show us that something is wrong, just like a fever is the body's warning sign of disease.

Other users of drugs who have nothing wrong with them are recreational and I think they're not a problem. They're welcome to end up like Christopher Hitchens.

When I put it like that, the solution is clear and it's not easy. Reform the society according to intelligent and logical guidelines, not as it is now. Not according to an ideology. Ideology goes blindly in one direction only, so it always gets something right and something wrong. Carried to the extreme, it's destructive. So there is no solution in an ideology. Nothing like "we should totally control people" or "we should totally let people free and those who die from drugs leave society clean" or "we should totally ban all drugs" or "we should totally allow all drugs", that's... totalitarianism.
Count Hans Adam from Liechtenstein has a solution and I agree with him, it means that state should take over the drug trade. It should send agents to Afghanistan and offer the opium farmers a better price than mafia. Then it should create a network of drug centers where all addicts may freely receive and use the drugs they want and clean needles, but may not carry them out, they must use them within. They will be also offered help and recovery programs at the center. They'll be basically treated as sick people instead of criminals. The state drugs will be always top quality, clean, without poisonous diluting additives, safely dosed. I think all addicts would be delighted.
Of course, this does not solve the problem of alcohol and smoking, which are socially acceptable. But! The alcohol abuse by minors actually increased when they were banned from pubs! At pubs they could get drunk, but they got kicked out by the bartender when they just got too much. Now they rather buy lots of booze at the supermarket (more of it, because it's cheaper there) and get hammered at home, without any supervision. And when something happens, like alcohol poisoning, they sometimes hesitate to call the emergency because there would be a scandal with parents. They just hope the young drunkard will just sleep it off... and won't get suffocated on vomit some time at night...
So even in this case, count Hans Adam is right. Damn, I like that guy.



As for what could be done easily immediately, I'd appoint a new policy:
Alcohol and cigarette labels and packets should not be designed by professional company designers, but by amateur government clerks who barely mastered MS Paint and MS Word. With orders to make them look ugly and sterile. Also with photographs of cancerous body parts, people who got tumors cut away with their lower jaw, cirrhotic livers and victims of drunk fights and drunk driving.
Such photos are already on cigarettes in some states and I'd like to see some data on their efficiency in turning people away from smoking.

Nevermind business. Business is a game that people play and with such things it stops being a game, the state has to step in.
Of course I can't imagine how I'd explain liquor brewers that they must exchange their artistic labels with fruit to something ugly. And no photograph would turn away homeless people who love to buy a disgusting cheap wine in a box. That's why I want to see the data, how much of the addiction is caused by marketing - I think that's the fifth layer of a product, which is the product awareness in the society. (see, I still remember something from the school)

How can people not see the correlation between, banning shit makes things worse as was the case with our prohibition on alcohol and the current war on drugs, and things get better by loosening the laws as they did in Portugal? It has been proven that education is much cheaper and works much better than incarceration. The money we could save by ending the war on drugs would buy a whole hell of a lot of education. That is not even counting the revenue that would be raised if we would legalize drugs and tax them, as well as the jobs created by legitimizing the drug trade.
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18-08-2012, 06:45 PM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(18-08-2012 05:23 PM)Luminon Wrote:  ....
Man, you're a treasure! Like a patient zero or how do they call it in epidemiology. You should offer yourself to science to study what makes you tick, how comes you won't get addicted. That might lead to some medicine to cure addicts.
....

I edited out a lot just because it didn't apply (other than thanks for the example). And I can't remember if I mentioned this (I had typed it, then removed it a few times), but long story short, in chemistry class in high school, the teacher thought I was going to pass out from inhaling chlorine gas (I couldn't smell it...) He was shocked--said there must be something odd with me to have been fine with it. Although I did have this desire to make a whiteout mountain because it's what whiteout wanted to have done with it (something like that--it made sense then). There's just always been something "odd" with me. I've half-jokingly said I plan on being the bearer of the plague that ends all life on earth--just because I figure if I have it, I'd probably end up being the one person "temporarily immune" to it long enough to pass it to everyone before succumbing to it.
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19-08-2012, 02:41 AM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(18-08-2012 05:29 PM)tnt4philly Wrote:  How can people not see the correlation between, banning shit makes things worse as was the case with our prohibition on alcohol and the current war on drugs, and things get better by loosening the laws as they did in Portugal? It has been proven that education is much cheaper and works much better than incarceration. The money we could save by ending the war on drugs would buy a whole hell of a lot of education. That is not even counting the revenue that would be raised if we would legalize drugs and tax them, as well as the jobs created by legitimizing the drug trade.

There are many reasons why people don't see the facts.
- They're uneducated and don't know how ignorant they are and how to look up the facts.
- They are conservatives. They believe in an ideology, saying that all drugs are evil, drug users are criminals and alcohol and cigarettes are not drugs, because they are a part of our culture. An ideology always gets something right and something wrong, the more extreme it is, the more it gets wrong.
(had they been really really conservative, they'd embrace the pot as long companion on tens of thousands years of human evolution up to 1940's ! Smile )
- They follow biased scientific tests. Marijuana was outlawed on data from fake tests, when rats were given pure concentrated crystalline THC in doses which nobody and nothing would physically ingest. Equivalents of many hundred grams of the dried vegetable matter. (yet, they didn't die, marijuana toxicity is low) Such tests were probably arranged by lobbyists from plastic and sisal fibre companies, possibly also big pharma, because cannabis has hundreds of medical and industrial uses and in these uses it's better than anything else.
- They're politicians corrupted by industry lobbyists and drug mafia.
- They smoke and drink a lot just like everyone else except their rebellious kids, who smoke pot. That makes it personal! Angry
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19-08-2012, 07:12 AM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(19-08-2012 02:41 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(18-08-2012 05:29 PM)tnt4philly Wrote:  How can people not see the correlation between, banning shit makes things worse as was the case with our prohibition on alcohol and the current war on drugs, and things get better by loosening the laws as they did in Portugal? It has been proven that education is much cheaper and works much better than incarceration. The money we could save by ending the war on drugs would buy a whole hell of a lot of education. That is not even counting the revenue that would be raised if we would legalize drugs and tax them, as well as the jobs created by legitimizing the drug trade.

There are many reasons why people don't see the facts.
- They're uneducated and don't know how ignorant they are and how to look up the facts.
- They are conservatives. They believe in an ideology, saying that all drugs are evil, drug users are criminals and alcohol and cigarettes are not drugs, because they are a part of our culture. An ideology always gets something right and something wrong, the more extreme it is, the more it gets wrong.
(had they been really really conservative, they'd embrace the pot as long companion on tens of thousands years of human evolution up to 1940's ! Smile )
- They follow biased scientific tests. Marijuana was outlawed on data from fake tests, when rats were given pure concentrated crystalline THC in doses which nobody and nothing would physically ingest. Equivalents of many hundred grams of the dried vegetable matter. (yet, they didn't die, marijuana toxicity is low) Such tests were probably arranged by lobbyists from plastic and sisal fibre companies, possibly also big pharma, because cannabis has hundreds of medical and industrial uses and in these uses it's better than anything else.
- They're politicians corrupted by industry lobbyists and drug mafia.
- They smoke and drink a lot just like everyone else except their rebellious kids, who smoke pot. That makes it personal! Angry

You ever see the movie Refer Madness?
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24-08-2012, 05:31 AM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(19-08-2012 07:12 AM)tnt4philly Wrote:  You ever see the movie Refer Madness?
Not yet, but I will. Sounds like fun! I regret I'm not on the dorm with my friend cannabis scholar anymore, we liked to watch unusual films and we'd have a good laugh on this one.

Did you ever listen to this DJ mix Raja Ram's Stashbag vol. 4? I believe it contains some quotes from the film, presented in a tongue-in-cheek manner, like this:
...marijuana: dried leaves and flowers of the indian hemp ... causes physical and moral ruin - and DEATH. (cheerful melody follows)
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24-08-2012, 05:37 AM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(30-07-2012 06:46 AM)poolboyg88 Wrote:  note: no answers saying that they'd just hook up society to cheaper and more readily available drugs.

Which methods do you think would be practical in eradicating the use of these drugs in society? (say, within the USA).

late late reply post... but..

why the fuck..
... i'll say it again...



WhY the FUcK would you ever want to do such a thing?!

jackass!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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24-08-2012, 05:48 AM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(17-08-2012 06:52 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  How do I do it if I am just doing it regardless?

Well since you already put up some situation without a purpose and realism.. I'll just go ahead and assume there are no limits to my presumed government control.

I would take action and destroy all existing tobacco crops. Then take any bit of existing tobacco and melt it in a volcano that is relatively isolated, probably in the pacific ocean. It would be a relentless attack to destroy every single genetic strand of tobacco on Earth.

As for Alcohol... that is a tricky one. It requires a never ending task force. First off I would confiscate all existing alcohol and probably dump it into a volcano adjacent to the tobacco one. That would not be enough, because I would still have to prevent it from being made. I would destroy any documents written or on the internet that exist about how to make alcohol. At that point, I would monitor the population, and if anybody learned how to create alcohol they will suffer a fierce death. That goes as well for any animals I find that are giving people ideas, that's right, I'm talking about you monkey's and Elephants. I find any of those suckers fermenting berries and they'll be poached. All parts of the animals will be given to the people for free, of course!

Now I see your original post said practical... Even though nothing about the idea is practical; if you want to effectively and perfectly eradicate their use? I see very few other options.

I do have a plan B... Wanna know Plan B?

Do you want it!?

It's make it a mandate that all Alcohol sold in the USA has strong poison dosage that kills anyone who drinks a tiny bit. As well as add poison to all US Tobacco fields. If tobacco is attempted to be smuggled in, it must be poisoned or the sale is punishable by death.

I find embarrasment to be quite effective. If you send out the DEA with cameras to record videos of drunks being so piss drunk that they do stupid shit and even some of the worst offenders shitting themselves, then put it on tv and make it mandatory for kids in school to watch it alcohol would disappear within a generation or 2. I never got started with those habits because I had an uncle that used to get piss drunk all the time. He acted like a child, farting in public and laughing and other shit that lost my respect. I do drink, but I keep it to one at a time usually. I never smoked anything, because my grandfather was a chain smoker. He would sit there and tell me about how if smoking was so bad, why isn't he dead. He died a real painful death due to his habits only about a year and a half ago. I have always learned by watching. Many kids do as well. We control what they think when they see stuff like that and they will make the right choices.
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24-08-2012, 05:51 AM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(24-08-2012 05:48 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  put it on tv and make it mandatory for kids in school to watch it alcohol would disappear within a generation or 2.

Given a choice between alcohol and people who think like you... I wouldn't ban alcohol.
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24-08-2012, 02:22 PM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(24-08-2012 05:31 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(19-08-2012 07:12 AM)tnt4philly Wrote:  You ever see the movie Refer Madness?
Not yet, but I will. Sounds like fun! I regret I'm not on the dorm with my friend cannabis scholar anymore, we liked to watch unusual films and we'd have a good laugh on this one.

Did you ever listen to this DJ mix Raja Ram's Stashbag vol. 4? I believe it contains some quotes from the film, presented in a tongue-in-cheek manner, like this:
...marijuana: dried leaves and flowers of the indian hemp ... causes physical and moral ruin - and DEATH. (cheerful melody follows)

It has been a loing while since I saw it. I do recall a kid taking a hit from a joint then his face goes all Jim Ignatowski and he jumps out of a second story window. In another scens some kids are driving in a car and when the driver takes a hit he starts driving on the sidewalk and running people over as they all laugh. Whats really fucked up is that I know people who still think pot makes you act like that.
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