How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
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17-08-2012, 02:54 AM (This post was last modified: 17-08-2012 03:05 AM by tnt4philly.)
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(31-07-2012 11:08 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  I personally would like to see all of the drugs--including alcohol and cigs--eradicated; however, I think I have come to terms with it's impossibilities to do just that.

Are you familiar with the results of banning alcohol in the US and how well the current war on drugs is going? When you ban something you give complete control of it to criminals. I am not a huge fan of giving the government control of things but they do a pretty good job with alcohol. School kids can get any drug they want much easier than they can get alcohol. Are you also aware of the results of Portugal decriminalizing all drugs in their country? The boogie man did not come out of the closet.
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17-08-2012, 03:17 AM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(17-08-2012 02:54 AM)tnt4philly Wrote:  
(31-07-2012 11:08 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  I personally would like to see all of the drugs--including alcohol and cigs--eradicated; however, I think I have come to terms with it's impossibilities to do just that.

Are you familiar with the results of banning alcohol in the US and how well the current war on drugs is going? When you ban something you give complete control of it to criminals. I am not a huge fan of giving the government control of things but they do a pretty good job with alcohol. School kids can get any drug they want much easier than they can get alcohol. Are you also aware of the results of Portugal decriminalizing all drugs in their country? The boogie man did not come out of the closet.

What I was trying to say is it should be legal, as long as it does not effect me. If you want to smoke, do not do it where I have to breath it in too. If you drink, do not drive if you are buzzed or drunk. You did it to yourself and should have to wait until sober again. If you do drink and drive, medical help should not be made available to you if you injured someone else. Instead your assets should be used to repair the injuries you caused by being selfishly stupid. After all, you may have killed someone I deeply care about, and I believe in an eye for an eye. So ask yourself before you go driving when drunk, do I want to lose a loved one?
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17-08-2012, 09:21 AM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(17-08-2012 03:17 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(17-08-2012 02:54 AM)tnt4philly Wrote:  Are you familiar with the results of banning alcohol in the US and how well the current war on drugs is going? When you ban something you give complete control of it to criminals. I am not a huge fan of giving the government control of things but they do a pretty good job with alcohol. School kids can get any drug they want much easier than they can get alcohol. Are you also aware of the results of Portugal decriminalizing all drugs in their country? The boogie man did not come out of the closet.

What I was trying to say is it should be legal, as long as it does not effect me. If you want to smoke, do not do it where I have to breath it in too. If you drink, do not drive if you are buzzed or drunk. You did it to yourself and should have to wait until sober again. If you do drink and drive, medical help should not be made available to you if you injured someone else. Instead your assets should be used to repair the injuries you caused by being selfishly stupid. After all, you may have killed someone I deeply care about, and I believe in an eye for an eye. So ask yourself before you go driving when drunk, do I want to lose a loved one?

I agree with the parts about not harming others, but not the part about not helping the person that is suspected of drivin impaired. The eye for an eye thing is a little over the top too. You committing a crime is not going to make things any better, an is how fueds/wars are started.
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17-08-2012, 04:15 PM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
Too many replies to go through, but I'll just condense the responses down to these:

1. The thread didn't ask whether you were in favour of the proposal. It asked how would you successfully carry it out.

2. It's good to point out past failed attempts, but if you're going to reply in this thread, please elaborate how would you then learn and adapt new strategies?

What would be the most successful strategy? And would we be able to agree that a particular strategy(s) would indeed be effective.

I'd like to see what the general make up of the strategy would be (Requires grass roots, or an elite guiding hand. Would it require education, or lies. Would it require compassion, or violence)

YOU HAVE A GOAL, NOW HOW WOULD YOU REACH THAT GOAL?
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17-08-2012, 04:26 PM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(17-08-2012 04:15 PM)poolboyg88 Wrote:  YOU HAVE A GOAL, NOW HOW WOULD YOU REACH THAT GOAL?

I don't have that goal and (more importantly, to me) I dislike anyone who does have such a goal. Life is miserable enough without some kill-joys trying to make it even worse.

If you don't like something... don't do it.

You have no right to work on a goal to eradicate something, just because you don't approve of it. If you can't understand that, list the things that make you happy and we can work out a strategy for eradicating those, too.
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17-08-2012, 04:57 PM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(17-08-2012 04:15 PM)poolboyg88 Wrote:  Too many replies to go through, but I'll just condense the responses down to these:

1. The thread didn't ask whether you were in favour of the proposal. It asked how would you successfully carry it out.

2. It's good to point out past failed attempts, but if you're going to reply in this thread, please elaborate how would you then learn and adapt new strategies?

What would be the most successful strategy? And would we be able to agree that a particular strategy(s) would indeed be effective.

I'd like to see what the general make up of the strategy would be (Requires grass roots, or an elite guiding hand. Would it require education, or lies. Would it require compassion, or violence)

YOU HAVE A GOAL, NOW HOW WOULD YOU REACH THAT GOAL?

Hey dude. You didn't notice but in fact several people did respond with a strategy. You asked for this discussion. If we missed the point so completely way back at the beginning *why didn't you say this then*? Also, be good enough to read the responses before dismissing them. If you didn't read them the first time, why should we repeat them?
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17-08-2012, 05:44 PM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
Start a thread and don't even read the responses? C'mon dude. Not cool.

But I'll play anyways.

If I were to have the goal of removing booze, smokes, or any other consumable product, I'd have to do so ruthlessly to have any hope of success (just look at pot and it's enough to tell you that prohibition alone doesn't work)

So first, I'd take over government. Basically, a dictatorship, where I could make decisions without the consent of the people. Then, a zero tolerance policy against all prohibited products. (these include zucchini of course, along side alcohol and cigarettes). Next, make any offence punishable by death. Even for simple possession. I,d either end up killing all the people with a desire to use the offending products, or kill enough people that everyone else is just far to scared to use them.

Anything less extreme than the above method (not to say it's the only method, but any other would have to be at least as drastic) would fail. We already know that. I mean shit, look at what a massive, expensive endeavor the DEA is. And it's a miserable failure.

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17-08-2012, 06:52 PM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
How do I do it if I am just doing it regardless?

Well since you already put up some situation without a purpose and realism.. I'll just go ahead and assume there are no limits to my presumed government control.

I would take action and destroy all existing tobacco crops. Then take any bit of existing tobacco and melt it in a volcano that is relatively isolated, probably in the pacific ocean. It would be a relentless attack to destroy every single genetic strand of tobacco on Earth.

As for Alcohol... that is a tricky one. It requires a never ending task force. First off I would confiscate all existing alcohol and probably dump it into a volcano adjacent to the tobacco one. That would not be enough, because I would still have to prevent it from being made. I would destroy any documents written or on the internet that exist about how to make alcohol. At that point, I would monitor the population, and if anybody learned how to create alcohol they will suffer a fierce death. That goes as well for any animals I find that are giving people ideas, that's right, I'm talking about you monkey's and Elephants. I find any of those suckers fermenting berries and they'll be poached. All parts of the animals will be given to the people for free, of course!

Now I see your original post said practical... Even though nothing about the idea is practical; if you want to effectively and perfectly eradicate their use? I see very few other options.

I do have a plan B... Wanna know Plan B?

Do you want it!?

It's make it a mandate that all Alcohol sold in the USA has strong poison dosage that kills anyone who drinks a tiny bit. As well as add poison to all US Tobacco fields. If tobacco is attempted to be smuggled in, it must be poisoned or the sale is punishable by death.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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17-08-2012, 08:13 PM
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
(17-08-2012 04:15 PM)poolboyg88 Wrote:  Too many replies to go through, but I'll just condense the responses down to these:

1. The thread didn't ask whether you were in favour of the proposal. It asked how would you successfully carry it out.

2. It's good to point out past failed attempts, but if you're going to reply in this thread, please elaborate how would you then learn and adapt new strategies?

What would be the most successful strategy? And would we be able to agree that a particular strategy(s) would indeed be effective.

I'd like to see what the general make up of the strategy would be (Requires grass roots, or an elite guiding hand. Would it require education, or lies. Would it require compassion, or violence)

YOU HAVE A GOAL, NOW HOW WOULD YOU REACH THAT GOAL?

Not possible. Period.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-08-2012, 12:54 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2012 01:14 PM by Luminon.)
RE: How would you successfully eradicate the use of alcohol and cigarettes?
Alcohol destroys whole families, I know a few of these around, for example my brothers' girlfriends come from such families.

I thought there is a correlation between substance use and intelligence and there seemed to be. But then I saw in the news how Christopher Hitchens got throat cancer, mind you, drinking and smoking together increases the risk of cancer significantly and he was quite a drinker and smoker.

That forced me to think.
Now I think that drugs are not a problem. When people are poor, uneducated, have no work, have a shitty work, have too much work, bleak and grey life, ugly urban surroundings, no achievement ahead, no future to look forward to, they get drugs and get addicted, commit crime or even become drug dealers themselves. Drug addiction is the society's way to show us that something is wrong, just like a fever is the body's warning sign of disease.

Other users of drugs who have nothing wrong with them are recreational and I think they're not a problem. They're welcome to end up like Christopher Hitchens.

When I put it like that, the solution is clear and it's not easy. Reform the society according to intelligent and logical guidelines, not as it is now. Not according to an ideology. Ideology goes blindly in one direction only, so it always gets something right and something wrong. Carried to the extreme, it's destructive. So there is no solution in an ideology. Nothing like "we should totally control people" or "we should totally let people free and those who die from drugs leave society clean" or "we should totally ban all drugs" or "we should totally allow all drugs", that's... totalitarianism.
Count Hans Adam from Liechtenstein has a solution and I agree with him, it means that state should take over the drug trade. It should send agents to Afghanistan and offer the opium farmers a better price than mafia. Then it should create a network of drug centers where all addicts may freely receive and use the drugs they want and clean needles, but may not carry them out, they must use them within. They will be also offered help and recovery programs at the center. They'll be basically treated as sick people instead of criminals. The state drugs will be always top quality, clean, without poisonous diluting additives, safely dosed. I think all addicts would be delighted.
Of course, this does not solve the problem of alcohol and smoking, which are socially acceptable. But! The alcohol abuse by minors actually increased when they were banned from pubs! At pubs they could get drunk, but they got kicked out by the bartender when they just got too much. Now they rather buy lots of booze at the supermarket (more of it, because it's cheaper there) and get hammered at home, without any supervision. And when something happens, like alcohol poisoning, they sometimes hesitate to call the emergency because there would be a scandal with parents. They just hope the young drunkard will just sleep it off... and won't get suffocated on vomit some time at night...
So even in this case, count Hans Adam is right. Damn, I like that guy.



As for what could be done easily immediately, I'd appoint a new policy:
Alcohol and cigarette labels and packets should not be designed by professional company designers, but by amateur government clerks who barely mastered MS Paint and MS Word. With orders to make them look ugly and sterile. Also with photographs of cancerous body parts, people who got tumors cut away with their lower jaw, cirrhotic livers and victims of drunk fights and drunk driving.
Such photos are already on cigarettes in some states and I'd like to see some data on their efficiency in turning people away from smoking.

Nevermind business. Business is a game that people play and with such things it stops being a game, the state has to step in.
Of course I can't imagine how I'd explain liquor brewers that they must exchange their artistic labels with fruit to something ugly. And no photograph would turn away homeless people who love to buy a disgusting cheap wine in a box. That's why I want to see the data, how much of the addiction is caused by marketing - I think that's the fifth layer of a product, which is the product awareness in the society. (see, I still remember something from the school)
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