Hugo Chavez dead?
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08-03-2013, 08:28 AM
RE: Hugo Chavez dead?
I'm surrounded with spineless, cowards that would steal their own mother, if the opportunity presents itself. Chavez was a man that would also steal his own mother if he had the chance, but he was not a spineless coward. And that is something I admire. With this nationalizing (oil, electricity, phones, water...) he set up incredibly strong foundations for his country. Now, if there is someone who will not steal from that people, they are all set to be a great nation. But of course, some of you will understand this, other will say I am a communist and a goddamn socialist and that no good may come if anything is ever nationalized. Private ownership is a must. Gagh!

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08-03-2013, 08:40 AM
RE: Hugo Chavez dead?
(08-03-2013 08:28 AM)Filox Wrote:  I'm surrounded with spineless, cowards that would steal their own mother, if the opportunity presents itself. Chavez was a man that would also steal his own mother if he had the chance, but he was not a spineless coward. And that is something I admire. With this nationalizing (oil, electricity, phones, water...) he set up incredibly strong foundations for his country. Now, if there is someone who will not steal from that people, they are all set to be a great nation. But of course, some of you will understand this, other will say I am a communist and a goddamn socialist and that no good may come if anything is ever nationalized. Private ownership is a must. Gagh!
I don't need to call you anything. Just look around at the evidence. Nationalization begets the nation that Chavez left. If you want evidence of private ownership in the absence of the state, take a look into the cellular telephone networks in Somalia. There is no official government there and thus, no restrictions on industry. Consequently, the cell network in Somalia is more dependable and advanced than any other in Africa and, frankly, a lot of first world countries.

And Somalia isn't an anarchy. It's merely a nation whose government collapsed.

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08-03-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: Hugo Chavez dead?
Riiiight, or look at Croatia, our oil company (INA) that is no longer our, but Hungary's (MOL), or our water, that they want to privatize, so that they can pump the prices, or our telephones, as soon as Deutsche Telekom bought it, the prices went up and while DT is extra cheap in Germany, it is the most expensive operator in my country. Guess what, DT has problems in Germany, financial problems, but they will not pump the prices in German, noooo, they will use Croatia for saving them in Germany.

It is VERY simple. There are things called STRATEGIC RESOURCES and that can never be private owned. Oil, gas, electricity, water, forests. With the example of the country I live in, that shit must never fall into hands of one individual. Those are peoples resources, a country's resources, not some John Doe's resources.

Trust me, if my country sells our water to anyone, I will be left to die of thirst, in the country that is full of fresh and clean water.

Private ownership, YES, but not for strategic resources, they belong to the nation, not private individuals. And that is the exact thing Chavez did, he returned the resources to the people and took it away from foreigners that were exploiting it and taking it away, leaving only crumbs for the domestic population. This is the part why I like (some of) his ideas and actions.

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08-03-2013, 09:47 AM
RE: Hugo Chavez dead?
(08-03-2013 09:35 AM)Filox Wrote:  Riiiight, or look at Croatia, our oil company (INA) that is no longer our, but Hungary's (MOL), or our water, that they want to privatize, so that they can pump the prices, or our telephones, as soon as Deutsche Telekom bought it, the prices went up and while DT is extra cheap in Germany, it is the most expensive operator in my country. Guess what, DT has problems in Germany, financial problems, but they will not pump the prices in German, noooo, they will use Croatia for saving them in Germany.

It is VERY simple. There are things called STRATEGIC RESOURCES and that can never be private owned. Oil, gas, electricity, water, forests. With the example of the country I live in, that shit must never fall into hands of one individual. Those are peoples resources, a country's resources, not some John Doe's resources.

Trust me, if my country sells our water to anyone, I will be left to die of thirst, in the country that is full of fresh and clean water.

Private ownership, YES, but not for strategic resources, they belong to the nation, not private individuals. And that is the exact thing Chavez did, he returned the resources to the people and took it away from foreigners that were exploiting it and taking it away, leaving only crumbs for the domestic population. This is the part why I like (some of) his ideas and actions.
When the state controls a resource and "controls" the price of that resource, it doesn't make it less expensive on the whole. It might make the unit price you pay less expensive but the costs you pay in taxes and the cost the poor pays in taxes outweighs the otherwise perceived high cost per unit from a private supplier.

Government can not and does not make things less expensive. They make things seem less expensive through taxation that isn't directly associated with the resource provided and they finance their operations through borrowing and inflating currency. The end result, as has always been seen, is a bankrupt government and a citizenry with poor quality resources. From an economic standpoint, it's a simple mathematical calculation. You can not promise three dollars in benefits for every dollar collected without the deficit eventually swallowing you. That's what's happening in all the first world countries around the world right now. Moreover, when governments inflate currency and borrow, the poor are the ones who suffer the most.

Of course, there is also the tragedy of the commons, which ensures that any resource the state takes hold of will end up being wasted or destroyed. Lastly, and most importantly, it is wholly immoral to provide services to people at the point of a gun... even if it does benefit some.

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08-03-2013, 03:47 PM
RE: Hugo Chavez dead?
Hugo Chavez seemed like a nice guy. It kind of sucks the USA had to give the guy cancer.

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09-03-2013, 09:54 PM
RE: Hugo Chavez dead?
Quote:I don't need to call you anything. Just look around at the evidence. Nationalization begets the nation that Chavez left. If you want evidence of private ownership in the absence of the state, take a look into the cellular telephone networks in Somalia. There is no official government there and thus, no restrictions on industry. Consequently, the cell network in Somalia is more dependable and advanced than any other in Africa and, frankly, a lot of first world countries.
Wow. I did not know that Mr. Ayn Rand was still alive!
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09-03-2013, 10:01 PM
RE: Hugo Chavez dead?
(09-03-2013 09:54 PM)Julius Wrote:  
Quote:I don't need to call you anything. Just look around at the evidence. Nationalization begets the nation that Chavez left. If you want evidence of private ownership in the absence of the state, take a look into the cellular telephone networks in Somalia. There is no official government there and thus, no restrictions on industry. Consequently, the cell network in Somalia is more dependable and advanced than any other in Africa and, frankly, a lot of first world countries.
Wow. I did not know that Mr. Ayn Rand was still alive!
That's clever. Do you care to address the argument?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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09-03-2013, 10:08 PM
RE: Hugo Chavez dead?
(09-03-2013 10:01 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(09-03-2013 09:54 PM)Julius Wrote:  Wow. I did not know that Mr. Ayn Rand was still alive!
That's clever. Do you care to address the argument?
Yeah...prove that Hugo fucked-up the people of Venezuela on the whole. Show us some God Damned evidence so-to-speak. Like Ayn Rand and Karl Marx, you sound like the kind of guy who will never let evidence impinge upon his political ideology. So...show us.
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09-03-2013, 11:58 PM
RE: Hugo Chavez dead?
(09-03-2013 10:08 PM)Julius Wrote:  
(09-03-2013 10:01 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  That's clever. Do you care to address the argument?
Yeah...prove that Hugo fucked-up the people of Venezuela on the whole. Show us some God Damned evidence so-to-speak. Like Ayn Rand and Karl Marx, you sound like the kind of guy who will never let evidence impinge upon his political ideology. So...show us.

Asking for evidence in this political forum is putting a nail in the coffin of a thread. The political aspect of atheism on this board is a fucking joke, if you want to know what people here think about the world then you might as well watch fox news. Recently north Korea and Chavez are causing boners for the conservative atheist forum, they simply parrot what they hear from corporate/state ran media and provide no logical arguments to back their assumptions up.
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10-03-2013, 07:31 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2013 07:40 PM by earmuffs.)
RE: Hugo Chavez dead?
(08-03-2013 06:27 AM)Filox Wrote:  You people are funny, indeed. So, from what I hear in this thread, Obama is Marxist and a socialist? Hmmm... Yeah, thats the spirit, now I am convinced that you are intelligent person who knows what he is talking about and you know that because you know what socialism is, because you lived there? Yes, yes...

As for the rest of you, is it bad in Venezuela? Sure it is, but I would give both my balls and both my hands if only one of Croatian politicians were to have BALLS big enough to say FUCK NO to USA and EU and to reclaim back what is ours. So for only that one particular reason, Chavez was a great man.

You can not understand that, because you live in countries like USA and UK and you like the power your countries have. In fact, you thrive and enjoy all that power, without even knowing where that power comes from and who is suffering for it.

Every story has 2 sides, never forget that.

In this context what you call power I call "having an understanding of macro-economics".

The only things government should own are the things noone else would (street lighting, fire department, police etc..) and things that are just stupid to entirely privatise (schools, healthcare, prisons) though even those can have private competition with the exception of prisons.

It's simple economics. Look at it this way Filox, "a country that tries to tax itself rich is like standing in a bucket and trying to lift yourself up".
Countries need to trade with eachother in a capitalist market in order to gain wealth (and power).
You need to sell your water because that generates wealth for your country which can then be used to buy other things.

Do I need to have the effeciency talk for the billionth time again? Maybe it'll finally sink in, miracles can happen right?

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