Human Chimp-Pig Hybrid Theory
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30-07-2013, 08:15 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2013 08:20 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Human Chimp-Pig Hybrid Theory
(30-07-2013 08:10 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(30-07-2013 07:40 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Not enough is known about hybridization to rule out this hypothesis. You can be skeptical but you can't disprove it without countering the evidence provided.

All known cases of hybridization occur between extremely closely related individuals. Humans and pigs descend from lineages whose last common ancestor was during the Cretaceous.

The pigs which coexisted with our ancestors in East Africa were not the ancestors of modern 'pig' pigs (genus Sus), but bushpigs and warthogs. I don't know off the top of my head but I doubt all of the very specific morphological similarities in question are found in those different species.

There is no genetic evidence mentioned here.

No human/non-human sexual encounter has ever resulted in offspring (and that's not even a small dataset to consider).

(30-07-2013 07:40 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Science is about exploring questions with an open mind. If we dismiss everything like that science wouldn't get us anywhere.

How about this, then?

There isn't genetic evidence, but lots of anatomical evidence.

Comparing this with the "Freezing the Distance" thread. That's fucked.

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30-07-2013, 08:19 AM
RE: Human Chimp-Pig Hybrid Theory
(30-07-2013 06:48 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  
(30-07-2013 06:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  Show me the DNA. The rest sounds like apologetics.

Read the source article.

You just shot yourself in the foot, right there. Tongue

This on page two:
Quote:God did not place pigs and humans in different taxonomic orders.

Then the title of the website - macroevolution. A seriously defensive attitude, a bunch of apologetic bullshit, quoting a study Chas claims to be debunked...

I'm no expert in this shit, but I have experience in parsing the presentations of experts, and this guy is presenting as a whackjob.

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30-07-2013, 08:21 AM
RE: Human Chimp-Pig Hybrid Theory
(30-07-2013 07:51 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  I'm gonna start bonobo-pig and chimp-pig orgy experimentation right away...

I heard those bonobo's are horny bastards... They will fuck anything that moves.

Sounds familiar. Consider

Modern humans have provably interbred with neanderthals, and plausibly with several other homo species.

Apes are no more related to pigs than humans are, but, good luck with that.

(30-07-2013 07:51 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Allot of people assume hybrids are sterile, the males usually are, but females can quite often be fertile. The mule is a fairly unique case as far as hybrids go.
When you back cross you can stabilize the hybrid such that their males become fertile again and the hybrid becomes self sustaining..

A mule is a hybridization between species within the same genus (equus). Horses and donkeys reliably produce infertile offspring (and the very occasional fertile offspring). Zebras, only a tiny bit less closely related, can interbreed with them as well (much more rarely). These are species which are within the same genus - they diverged during the Miocene.

Of the tens of millions of mules bred by humans there are perhaps dozens of verifiable accounts of fertility. This is an extraordinarily low frequency.

Human/pig hybrids - assuming such a thing is even possible, which is a wild leap, but sure, we'll roll with it - would necessarily be even less likely to be fertile.

Given the rather small populations of ancestral hominids, gene transfer from pigs would have resulted in fertile individuals in only a literal handful of cases. We are not talking of a deliberate large-scale breeding effort (like mules!), we are talking chance encounters between vastly different species. The sample size would be tiny and the success rate magnitudes smaller still. The human population bottleneck is small, but it isn't that small.

And that is leaving aside all the other reasons this is a whackjob idea.

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30-07-2013, 08:50 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2013 09:01 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Human Chimp-Pig Hybrid Theory
Can someone confirm if this really happened?

Pig Monkey Hybrid - that apparently died a few weeks after birth. It couldn't move properly either.

[Image: monkey-humping-wild-pig-boar.jpg]
[Image: 1389014.jpg]
[Image: monkey-faced-pig-shocks-the-world_0.jpg]
[Image: pig-3.jpg]

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30-07-2013, 09:15 AM
RE: Human Chimp-Pig Hybrid Theory
Ok, thats just some developmental disorder. Never mind. lol.

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30-07-2013, 09:21 AM
RE: Human Chimp-Pig Hybrid Theory
(30-07-2013 08:50 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Can someone confirm if this really happened?

Pig Monkey Hybrid - that apparently died a few weeks after birth. It couldn't move properly either.

[Image: monkey-faced-pig-shocks-the-world_0.jpg]

I'm not sure if you pulled those from an image search, but the site hosting the image I left up there actually attempts some analysis. Note too that it is only the face which is in any way atypical.

Cyclopic malformation is not uncommon in many mammal species; it tends to correlate with other facial deformities (ie, like that piglet there).

Consider this, as a start...
Science Daily Wrote:Homer’s Cyclops might be myth, but a disorder that can cause babies to be born with only one eye is very real. Scientists from Cleveland, Ohio, and Paris, France, reached an important milestone in understanding one of the molecular causes of a rare, but serious birth defect, Holoprosencephaly. …a known mutation of the TG interacting factor (TGIF) gene, called TGIF.P63R, causes Holoprosencephaly, which affects brain and skull formation. In particular, researchers found that this mutation not only does not produce the protein necessary for healthy fetal development, but the mutant protein may actually destroy the small amounts of the normal protein that is needed. … Holoprosencephaly occurs when the embryonic forebrain fails to divide into the two lobes that make up the cerebral hemispheres. As a result, people with this disorder have a single-lobed brain structure and severe skull and facial defects. In most cases, the disorder is so severe that fetuses die before birth. In relatively “mild” cases, babies may be born with near-normal brain development, but they usually have facial deformities affecting the eyes, nose, and/or upper lip.

Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes. Apes have 24. Pigs have 19.

For reference - donkeys have 30 pairs and horses 32. Mules (and hinnies) must have proper alignment of 31 of those pairs.

A human-great ape hybrid is just at the outer edge of probability. We could presumably attempt artificial fertilization until success occurs; full-scale trials are unlikely to be approved.

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30-07-2013, 03:15 PM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2013 03:18 PM by DeepThought.)
RE: Human Chimp-Pig Hybrid Theory
The zedonk is a viable hybrid. The zebra 44 chromasomes vs 62 for the donkey.

Well maybe this should research should be done where there is no beurocracy to stop it. The knowledge gained would be worth it. It doesnt seem difficult to do. Though I would make human crosses. Rather use primates for that.

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30-07-2013, 03:18 PM
RE: Human Chimp-Pig Hybrid Theory
(30-07-2013 07:40 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  
(30-07-2013 07:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yeah, ad hominem.

What happens in the DNA of hybrids is well established... Especially after several generations of back crossing. It will get masked by the chimp DNA.

After a while when you keep asking for DNA evidence it just gets annoying to have to repeat the same things again.

And asking someone to read something is a pretty reasonable request isn't it? It's not like Idiot! Dickhead! Gramps pants! etc...

Not enough is known about hybridization to rule out this hypothesis. You can be skeptical but you can't disprove it without countering the evidence provided.

Quote:Anyone who speaks with certainty on this point speaks from prejudice, not knowledge. No systematic attempts to cross distantly related mammals have been reported. However, in the only animal class (Pisces) where distant crosses have been investigated scientifically, the results have been surprisingly successful (399.6, 399.7, 399.8). In fact, there seems to be absolutely nothing to support the idea that interordinal crosses (such as a cross between a primate and a nonprimate) are impossible, except what Thomas Huxley termed "the general and natural belief that deliberate and reiterated assertions must have some foundation."

Science is about exploring questions with an open mind. If we dismiss everything like that science wouldn't get us anywhere.

I don't need to disprove it, I'm not making any claim.

I said I'm skeptical. I said there is insufficient evidence, and what is presented is unconvincing.

I have an open mind - I read the article, I tried to understand the evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-08-2013, 03:12 PM
RE: Human Chimp-Pig Hybrid Theory
(30-07-2013 07:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Uhm...no? It's just your jurisdiction that this claim is extraordinary. Also, any evidence is a fact, that doesn't care if you think it's extraordinary. Science doesn't work that way, people's beliefs do.
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01-08-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: Human Chimp-Pig Hybrid Theory
(01-08-2013 03:12 PM)Cycle Wrote:  Uhm...no? It's just your jurisdiction that this claim is extraordinary. Also, any evidence is a fact, that doesn't care if you think it's extraordinary. Science doesn't work that way, people's beliefs do.

What if the evidence is fake or purely circumstantial? Its not fact then.

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