Human Worth
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12-04-2012, 11:52 AM
RE: Human Worth
bemore, bemore, bemore...

First of all, stop trying to force your definition of disabled onto my argument.

All right SHENNANIGINS, thats not how it works, you entered this, for the sake of arguement, lets call it debate into the public forum. This does not belong to you, secondly I see no forcing of his defintion being forced in anywhere what I see is the expansion of your limited understanding of the term to more closely resemble what the word actually means.
Firstly, if you're going to use the word shenanigans over and over,
the least you could do is take the time to learn how to spell it.
Second, bemore has already stated "it was merely a misunderstanding on my part obviously."
Thirdly, who fucking cares what you see?

Especially in light of the fact that bemore already said it was a misunderstanding?
No, what you have done here is shenanigans. You're whole post is arguing about arguing.
I'll bet you love to hear yourself talk, don't you?


I've already made my position clear. If you don't like it, fine.

Again, you entered this into a public forum, if you wanna play pracher man, then get a placard and find a street corner to rant from.
Is this what passes for wit where you come from?
You do realize that a street corner IS a public forum... don't you?
Rolleyes DOH!

But don't try to twist things around to support your straw-man.
Secondly, I skirted nothing.
You're the one fawning over Ghost's... post.
Which included this line:

"Anecdotal fantasy hypotheticals are not fact."


Apparently, that only applies to things I say. Rolleyes

Well it does when you use anecdotal fantasy hypotheticals. As it applies to every and anyone else who does.

Clearly you missed the point. The exchange went like this:

1.) I offered a scenario to Ghost.
2.) Ghost dismissed it, saying "Anecdotal fantasy hypotheticals are not fact."
3.) bemore praised Ghost's post which included the line "Anecdotal fantasy hypotheticals are not fact."
4.) bemore then proceeds to engage me with (wait for it)... an anecdotal fantasy hypothetical !
One which I am evidently not allowed to dismiss, and am even accused of skirting.

And that, Humakt, is called a double-standard. Learn it. Love it. Live it.

Perhaps, now, my sarcastic retort:

"Apparently, that only applies to things I say."

makes some kind of sense to you. Who knows? Perhaps not.
Big Grin

Whatever. I disagree with you. Get over it.
Debating is fantastic, healthy even.

Really, debating is healthy. But people who disagree with you and your argument should shut the fuck up. Once more I call shennagins.
Wrong. I'm the one who's had my feet held to the proverbial fire for disagreeing with the notion that all human life has worth. If you had read the entire thread, you would know that. You did read the whole thread, you say? Go back and read it again. Still don't get it? I don't know what to tell you. Would it have been easier for you to understand if I had stated it this way?:

"Get over the fact that I disagree with you."


I should be able to disagree. What's the problem?


But don't come with this penny-ante bullshit.

If your not open to debate, dont post in a public forum. Or more accuratly post all you, but consider sparing us your ravings when people take your lunatic views to task.
Haha, spare us your ravings? Lunatic views? This is a perfect example of "people who disagree with you and your argument should shut the fuck up." Now you're arguing with yourself, breaking your own commandments. THAT is textbook shenanigans.

The life of a criminally-deranged sociopath (oxymoron?) has no value.
Stay focused and try arguing with that.
But only do so in a way you agree with, shannagins.

Makes no sense; if there were agreement, there wouldn't be an argument.
Thumbsup

...or lose your mind and have an emotional breakdown when
someone disagrees with you, like your buddy Ghost.
It's your choice.

Really, he gets to choose. He gets to choose to agree with you or shut the fuck up. Shennanigins, I say.

Where are you getting this shit?
The choice was between presenting a counter-point or having a breakdown. CLEARLY STATED.

I don't see the part where it says: "Agree with me or shut the fuck up."
Not only are you a fool, you're a liar.


In short, shennangins, and despite your demands, I also am going to disagree with you. As far Im concerned, even your life has value despite your efforts to devalue its worth.

It would seem that this whole thing hinges on this:

Explain the value of the life of a criminally-deranged sociopath who has tortured and murdered your children.

My
contention is that this individual's life is worthless and expendable,
and therefore not all human life is sacred/has value.

Have an argument that this individual's life is valuable?
Can you present it without pissing yourself?
If I have to answer anecdotal fantasy hypotheticals then so do you.
P.S. Fuck your patience. Shithead.

In your own words:

No skirting.
If my son turns out to be a criminally-deranged sociopath, then he's already dead.
I would volunteer to throw the switch myself.
Irrelevant though, right? Since your girlfriend has already whimpered:
"Anecdotal fantasy hypotheticals are not fact."

You advocate the exact behaviour you deem worthy of death, if your son does indeed turn out to be a criminally-deranged sociopath, perhaps that could be said to be an example of heredity at work, but its like your mommy said aint it if you are what you eat.
Exact behavior? Are you kidding? The "throw the switch" metaphor notwithstanding, since when is the legal, state-sanctioned, humane execution of dangerous criminals (capital offenders) deemed the "exact behavior" as the rape, torture, and murder of children? You're a fucking idiot.


Oh and I'll save you the trouble of replying Im a retard and gay and shut the fuck up and bow before your wisdom and realise Im being a crying girly girl who has no right to live. Retard? Gay? No right to live? What the fuck are you talking about? Where is this coming from? I never said any of that shit. It's easily verifiable. Did you really think that was going to fly? There's something wrong with you...

But in an attempt to let you argue your own arguement, I'll let you sum up in your own words:

Explain the value of the life of a criminally-deranged sociopath who has tortured and murdered your children.

My
contention is that this individual's life is worthless and expendable,
and therefore not all human life is sacred/has value.

No skirting.
If my son turns out to be a criminally-deranged sociopath, then he's already dead.
I would volunteer to throw the switch myself.
Explain the value of the life of a criminally-deranged sociopath who has tortured and murdered your children.

Explain the value of the life of a criminally-deranged sociopath who has tortured and murdered your children.

My
contention is that this individual's life is worthless and expendable,
and therefore not all human life is sacred/has value.

Rinse and repeat.

Now you get back to shouting at the voices in your head,

Get well soon.

Comparing apples and oranges, or just plain making shit up, is something a child does.
Why do you do it? It just makes you look... desperate.
You come across as a bandwagon-jumper, with nothing of substance to contribute, so you manufacture it.
I get it: I offended you. Deal with it.

I would have loved to have read your actual ideas on this thread's subject,
rather than your whining about my attitude or the "way I argue",
but you've been caught blatantly lying about what I've said in this thread.
You've thrown your credibility out the window.
Was it worth it?

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12-04-2012, 01:19 PM
RE: Human Worth
(09-04-2012 06:52 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Quidsane.

You're a punk. But you're also like masturbating with a cheeze grater. Slightly amusing, but mostly painful. And so I wade in.

I didn't throw a hissy fit, I called you out. You can't tell the difference because you display zero personal accountability. Such is life.

So you know, it's actually impossible to respond to "bullshit" reiterated ten times with anything other than, "no it's not." So while this may be the level of scintillating conversation you are used to with the other kids just before nap time, I prefer to speak about ideas and facts, you know, adult things.

Since you're like a dog with a bone on the whole anecdotal fantasy hypothetical tip, here's your lesson.

To support your position, you offered an anecdote. Here's an example of anecdotal evidence, "Black people must be criminals because I got mugged by a black guy once." You are taking a single example and trying to use it to defend an entire position (that my statement: Human beings cannot kill other human beings UNLESS they dehumanise them in some way: was total bullshit). That's not how life works I'm afraid. It's also demagoguery to try and win an argument by tugging on the heart strings of your audience. You characterise this person as a monster in an attempt to illicit an emotional response to the example. Well emotional responses have little to no scientific value. Fact does.

It's fantastic because you've invented this scenario in which a maniac driver runs over an eight year old and you, champion of all champions, strangle the man to death. You might as well have offered an example where a psychopath drops pies from a hot air balloon. And to top it off, your fantasy creates a powerful frame in which the only possible response to such an event is vengeance by strangulation.

And it's a hypothetical because you're saying, "Imagine this happened."

Your example was an anecdotal fantasy hypothetical.

I, on the other hand, can offer facts. Read Oliver Stone's book, "On Killing," or anything by Konrad Lorenz. Read US Army training manuals or look at the US study conducted during the Pacific campaign of World War II that showed that only 15% of the marines were doing the bulk of the fighting. Or perhaps you could read some 101-level developmental psychology text. Or read something about psychopathy and sociopathy. You see, I anchor my opinions to fact. Try it some time.

And yes, you're a petty little man because you responded to my post, I thought somewhat eloquently, and then went on to take shots at me for many posts afterwards; eliminating any credit I had given you. You are a petty man who couldn't let go.

Why am I still here? Well, I came here in the first place because you invited me personally. Then after inviting me, you shat all over me. I prefer if my host offers cheeze and crackers, but life is full of strange customs. After I told you to go fuck yourself for inviting me in, only to throw poop at me, you kept droning on about me while others echoed my distaste for you and tried to offer facts, to which you offered no coherent counter-argument. I stayed to read what other people were writing because, shocker I know, it's not all about you. After hearing your constant petty shots at me, I felt the need to speak up. So you may lick my ball sack at your leisure.

Quote:Explain the value of the life of a criminally-deranged sociopath who has tortured and murdered your children.



My contention is that this individual's life is worthless and expendable,

and therefore not all human life is sacred/has value.



Have an argument that this individual's life is valuable?

Can you present it without pissing yourself?

If I have to answer anecdotal fantasy hypotheticals then so do you.

Your position is that if someone harms another it is an unforgivable act regardless of context. It's a popular position and a woefully unconsidered one. Thankfully the courts recognise that there are situations in which a person did not have command of their faculties during the commission of a crime and that, while a crime did in fact occur, they need medical attention rather than punishment. And yes, the "insanity plea" is abused, but abuse doesn't invalidate the fact that some people are simply ill. People like you want to treat these illnesses as some flaw in the person and you use simplistic language like "they're just evil" but it's not a flaw, it's an illness. The ill deserve our sympathy; or would you call a man with a broken leg an asshole because he can't keep up in the marathon? ALL mental health disorders can be treated. That doesn't mean they can be cured and it doesn't mean that sometimes individuals don't need to be separated from the rest of the population during their treatment, it means that steps can be taken to help the person, because they ARE a person. They need and deserve help. So while vilifying them makes it easier for people like you to dehumanise them, call them monsters and call for their murder, the facts, thankfully, paint a much different picture.

Again, you rely on demagoguery. Yes, if a sociopath killed my children I'd be pissed. And it's easy to present a situation and frame it so that the only logical response would be for me to call out for blood. But there are other ways to deal with it. Punitive justice is not the only justice system in the world. In South Africa, after the fall of the apartheid system, Nobel Peace Prize laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu set up the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It's primary goal was not to punish, but to provide a forum in which everyone could simply admit to the truth of what happened. It employed restorative justice. People admitted to murder and kidnapping and to the entire spectrum of horrible things that occurred under apartheid and the families and friends of victims finally got to hear what really happened. The point of the TRC was to say, these things happened. We must admit to them and recognise them and face them so that we can move past them as a people. The TRC was well received locally and internationally and was wildly successful. So while small minded people like yourself are content to call out for blood, those who have experienced true atrocity are capable of a level of forgiveness that you cannot comprehend. Many of the people who committed terrible acts went on to become productive members of the new South African society because no one lost sight of their humanity. It was the denial of humanity that led to apartheid in the first place.

Your entire argument proves my point. It hinges on the fact that sociopathic child-murdering monsters are not human. But in order to characterise them that way, you have to deny their humanity. You offer no evidence or even opinion to support WHY they are not human, you simply trust that your demagogic tirade will carry the day and that others will simply assume their inhumanity as you do. Thankfully no one has taken your bait.

Now if you'll excuse me, I urinated in my pants while writing this and I need to clean up to avoid chafing.

Let me get this straight: you admit to masturbating with a cheese grater? Big Grin

Your example of anecdotal evidence is not analogous to my anecdotal evidence and you damn well know that.
And you claimed you had zero patience for bullshit.

I gave you a hypothethical example of how one human being could kill another without dehumanizing them in ANY way.
To be fair, perhaps the phrase "TOTAL bullshit" was the wrong one (but not the totally wrong one, haha).
I would concede that dehumanizing takes place in most cases.
But not ALL. Why is this so difficult for you?

I just thought of another example: what about accidental death?
When I accidentally backed over the old lady in my driveway, was she "dehumanized" by me?

Already I've shown that your premise (at the very least) needs to be changed to:

"Human beings cannot PURPOSELY kill other human beings UNLESS they dehumanize them in some way."

Which I don't agree with either.
What about mercy killings or "assisted suicide" ?

This is what happens when you start throwing absolutes around, Ghost.

Also, it's not the term "anecdotal fantasy hypothetical" that is the issue.
As I've explained, it would seem that when I give an example, it's OK to dismiss it.
But when bemore proposes an anecdotal fantasy hypothetical, you had better by god acknowledge it,
or face his wrath and prepare to have your rep negged.
(by the way, you're spineless for doing that, bemore)

I never said or implied this: "Your position is that if someone harms another it is an unforgivable act regardless of context."
Are you out of your mind? Regardless of context? Where in the hell are you getting that from?
I was very specific, very detailed, and supplied you with more than enough context.
Your summary of my position is FALSE.

Your paragraph on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was moving. Seriously.
I was unaware of it. It's inspiring in many ways. Truly.

But it my mind, I cannot see how it would apply to a sociopath.
And, again, I disagree that being a sociopath is a mental illness.
As you well know, the definition of what constitutes mental illness changes with each passing year.
Homosexuality was considered a mental illness until 1973!
Sociopaths are not crazy; they simply have no ability to feel empathy.
They can appear to laugh and cry and to be charming, but are absolutely
lacking in what it is to be human: the ability to put yourself into the shoes of another.
The sociopath is just as non-human as a table lamp, the difference being that I am not afraid
that the table lamp is going to destroy my life when I let down my guard or turn my back.
A sociopath cannot be forgiven. There is nothing to forgive them for.
It doesn't apply. Not in terms of humanity. They have no humanity to deny.

And let's please dispense with "man in wheelchair is the same as a psychopathic killer because they're both disabled."
You (and others) are playing fast and loose with the word disabled, and you know it.
If you really believe that I'm advocating the execution of all "people with broken legs",
then I'm afraid any further exchange with you is pointless. I hope that's not the case.

No, haha, I won't be licking your balls. But I'll bet they need it, what with all of that urine your sitting in
that keeps stinging the chafing you recieved as a result of improper cheese grater usage.
Ask bemore to do it. He's already proven he's good at that sort of thing.

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12-04-2012, 02:24 PM
RE: Human Worth
You neg me with this bullshit?:

"Unwilling to debate things openly and throws petty insults."

You gave me carte blanche to ignore you, did you not?:

(08-04-2012 05:17 AM)bemore Wrote:  ...what would you do if one of your family members/loved ones had a problem that made them do something "horrific" to somebody else and hurt them?

Its an inconvenient question comparable to your views so you can be the "lame" one and just ignore it if you please Laughat

Then, after telling me to "just ignore it", you kept on and on about it.
So I answered:

"If my son turns out to be a criminally-deranged sociopath, then he's already dead.
I would volunteer to throw the switch myself."

So. "Unwilling to debate things openly" is horseshit.

As far as "petty insults", if that deserves a neg, fine.
I guess you'll be busy then, negging just about everyone on this forum, let alone this thread. Jesus Christ.
Your skin is so thin as to be translucent. You need to remedy that.
But it's really only the "petty insults" that come from me that require your attention, right bemore? Rolleyes

So far, in this thread alone...

The first round of petty insults were "thrown" by Ghost, not me. Here are some of them:

you fucking fly by night troll
fucking hypocrite
For real, man, fuck you
You're a real piece of shit
you're a fucking asshole.
GO FUCK YOURSELF!
you're a petty little man
I'll put you in your place.

...and none of that merits a neg, right?

So, yes, I fired back. That's unacceptable around here? Really?!

Bullshit.

Whatever. I will reiterate by quoting myself from this thread:

"I wouldn't want to live in a world where every conversation is sterile and sanitary,
and nothing is ever said that could possibly be offensive to anyone. I find that terribly sad."


(09-04-2012 09:46 AM)bemore Wrote:  Quidsane........

You brought the subject up......then when you face opposition to your belief system you then go on the offensive by throwing silly , petty and derailing insults.

Things that im afraid I will not bite to

I may have wrote my first response here adding a few swearwords to emphasise my feelings towards this subject.... I have nothing against you as I believe we are all here to debate things and I still have nothing against you although the way you conduct yourself by trying to be smart just shows the whole forum of the sort of character that you are.

Thats all I have to say on the subject now seeing as you are not willing to openly debate things properly and I shall be steering clear of your threads and I would appreciate it if you didnt bother to reply to any of my threads in the future as they wont be welcomed by me.

Thank you.

Your demonstrably wrong.
This absolutely did not happen:

"then when you face opposition to your belief system you then go on the offensive by throwing silly , petty and derailing insults."


Go back and review it. "Petty and derailing insults" were thrown at me first, and I responded in kind.
Not able to deal with that? Fine.
Still no reason to neg me, you chickenshit.

"I would appreciate it if you didnt bother to reply to any of my threads in the future as they wont be welcomed by me."

Tough shit. You're not a moderator. Who the hell are you to say something like that to me? To anybody?

Also, here's a valid point about this whole "debate" issue.
I give you a quote from Ghost, post #12 in this thread:

"They are human beings first and foremost and deserve to be treated as such, regardless of how vile you
might think their position is," is absolutely true. This is not a debate."

Did you get that, asshole?
Ghost took the entire basis of the thread and proclaimed it "absolutely true" and then finished off with
"This is not a debate."

Oh, the irony! Sadcryface2

You're a vindictive child, bemore.
And you've surely demonstrated what your human worth is.

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12-04-2012, 03:32 PM
RE: Human Worth
No im not a mod.... it was a polite request that you dont actually have to follow.

I have had my say.... you have had yours....... end of conversation now.

You're never going to say the things you want to say.
The things you want to change will usually stay that way
The promises you break outweigh the ones you keep.
Paint upon the wall for the hundredth time.

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12-04-2012, 04:48 PM
RE: Human Worth
Cool beans.

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13-04-2012, 01:44 AM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2012 02:15 AM by Humakt.)
RE: Human Worth
Quote:Firstly, if you're going to use the word shenanigans over and over,
the least you could do is take the time to learn how to spell it.
No.
Second, bemore has already stated "it was merely a misunderstanding on my part obviously."
I wasnt addressing Bemore, I was addressing you, unless your delgating to Bemore the authority to talk to you,I'll continue not putting his word in your mouth.
Thirdly, who fucking cares what you see?

Boing flip, right back at ya.
Especially in light of the fact that bemore already said it was a misunderstanding?
See above.
No, what you have done here is shenanigans. You're whole post is arguing about arguing.
If you classify telling anyone who doesnt submit to your view to shut the fuck up arguing then your arguemention deserves to be debated.
I'll bet you love to hear yourself talk, don't you?
Im not adverse to it, but I prefer to listen.


I've already made my position clear. If you don't like it, fine.
I dont, Ive only done the same, if you dont like that, fine.


Is this what passes for wit where you come from?
I dont think that would pass for wit anywhere, it was meant more as condemnation than anything else.
You do realize that a street corner IS a public forum... don't you?
Rolleyes DOH!
That is a fair point and I concede it. Touche.

But don't try to twist things around to support your straw-man.
Im not trying to twist anything, Ive been straight forward enough as to a strawman, Im not really advancing anything but the idea that you should consider being a bit more civil and actually debating than just shouting shut up fucktard all the time.
Secondly, I skirted nothing.
Not how it read to me, but I'll take your word on that for as far your point of view goes.
You're the one fawning over Ghost's... post.
I liked the posted, still do. If thats fawning in your eyes, fair enough.

Which included this line:

"Anecdotal fantasy hypotheticals are not fact."

Are you condending they are?

Apparently, that only applies to things I say. Rolleyes
No that applies to all of them. As you can clearly see I believe as I directly state
it, if you choose to ignore that to fling some mud around, excuse me if I feel less than guilty for that.

"Well it does when you use anecdotal fantasy hypotheticals. As it applies to every and anyone else who does."

Clearly you missed the point. The exchange went like this:

1.) I offered a scenario to Ghost.
Yes Ive read the thread.
2.) Ghost dismissed it, saying "Anecdotal fantasy hypotheticals are not fact."
He is right to do so.
3.) bemore praised Ghost's post which included the line "Anecdotal fantasy hypotheticals are not fact."
mm k
4.) bemore then proceeds to engage me with (wait for it)... an anecdotal fantasy hypothetical !
As I said I was addressing you not bemore, so you should properly address that point to bemore.
One which I am evidently not allowed to dismiss, and am even accused of skirting.
You certainly are, but your dismissal is not limited to any anecdotal portion, but to everything. I cant say I remember any of bemores post, but Id be surprised if it was entirely anecdotal.

And that, Humakt, is called a double-standard. Learn it. Love it. Live it.
If there is a double standard there, the double standard is not mine, nor do I think you believe it is mine as you attribute it to bemore, so why you address this to me is a little perplexing. But I'll restate, Im not responsable for bemore, Id I wont do him the disservice of answering for him,
I invite you to address this concern to him.

Perhaps, now, my sarcastic retort:
Feel free.

"Apparently, that only applies to things I say."

makes some kind of sense to you. Who knows? Perhaps not.
Big Grin
Yes that broadly fits the definition.

Whatever. I disagree with you. Get over it.
Its sweet you think Im concerned or in some for of distress over this, let me assure you I am neither, though I thatk you for the concern for my well being. Very Christian of you.
Debating is fantastic, healthy even.
Indeed I agree.


Really,
debating is healthy. But people who disagree with you and your argument
should shut the fuck up. Once more I call shennagins.

Wrong. I'm
the one who's had my feet held to the proverbial fire for disagreeing
with the notion that all human life has worth. If you had read the
entire thread, you would know that. You did read the whole
thread, you say? Go back and read it again. Still don't get it? I don't
know what to tell you. Would it have been easier for you to understand
if I had stated it this way?:
I have, Im not goin to read it, if your feet have been held to the proverbial fire, it is not for your arguement you put forward a thesis, several people disagree any many point of it - not just by dismissing an acedote, in Ghosts post in paticualr he write a very detailed counter arguement, providing sources and supporting points. You then proceed stamp your feet like at a petulant child whilst screaming obcenties.

"Get over the fact that I disagree with you."

Your views I'll take on there own merits, given that I can assure you has left me with nothing worthwhile to get over.

I should be able to disagree. What's the problem?

You should, you can and you do. The problem is your ability to extend the same to others and I think I'll quote you here "
And that, Humakt, is called a double-standard. Learn it. Love it. Live it.

But don't come with this penny-ante bullshit.I would say right back at ya, but this is a public forum so you hould feel as entitled to as do. But certainly, as its my aim to learn or at least engage in an interesting conversation I will probably be disinclined to talk with you, purely a value judgement on my part given the evidence I have at hand. Who knows you might say something in the future that will be worthwhile engaging with. Certainly I lack enough evidence at the moment to have a reliable perdictive model.

If
your not open to debate, dont post in a public forum. Or more accuratly
post all you, but consider sparing us your ravings when people take
your lunatic views to task.

Haha, spare us your ravings?
No

Lunatic views?
Yes
This is a perfect example of "people who disagree with you and your argument should shut the fuck up.
Only if you ignore the fact where I specifically say post all you want, even though I concede I appear to have missed the word want, so I can not and do blame you for misrepresenting me, that is my fault. That said it is not my intension to silence you, speak all you want, I merely asking you engage in debate - if you dont want to fair enough, but, and Im sure this will not break your heart, I'll be less inclined to bother engaging with you in future for the reasons given above.
" Now you're arguing with yourself, breaking your own commandments. THAT is textbook shenanigans.


The life of a criminally-deranged sociopath (oxymoron?) has no value.
I fail to concur. You may feel free to repeat yourself again, in the absence of a reply from me you may infer I will continue to not concur.
Stay focused and try arguing with that.
You havegiven me nothing to focus upon, you have merely repeated yourself. You know I dont agree why would you think that would have changed.

But only do so in a way you agree with, shannagins.
OK, to show you Im prepared to be fair I'll enter into the spirit of things and use the form of argumentation you feel is justified.

Im completely right, therefore your obviously wrong, if you cant see that then your a retard and should shut the fuck up. I once knew a guy like you, he was so dumb he used to lick walls, true story.

Makes no sense; if there were agreement, there wouldn't be an argument.
Thumbsup
We dont need to agree, the fact you seem to understand that makes it even stranger to me that you would engage in the behaviour youve demonstrated here to those who dont agree with you. In fact if your aware of this, then perhaps it is you in love with the sound of their own voice, as you shown little interest in debating only in making dogmatic statements and shouting down and insulting anyone who dares to disagree.
...or lose your mind and have an emotional breakdown when
someone disagrees with you, like your buddy Ghost.
Yes, yes very clever, but Im not gonna address that for the third time. Also Ghost is not my buddy, he is as much a stranger to me as you are.
It's your choice.
Like most things these are not matters I get to choose.

Really, he gets to choose. He gets to choose to agree with you or shut the fuck up. Shennanigins, I say.

Where are you getting this shit?
I think it was from you saying it was your thread and that if he didnt agree to shut the fuck up, perhaps phrased as dont bring your weak assed shit, but you'll forgive me if I didnt commit your eloquent prose to memory.
The choice was between presenting a counter-point or having a breakdown. CLEARLY STATED.
Given the rest of what put forward, Im sure you find that reasonable, if you cant recognise Ghosts original post as that counter point then whatever.

I don't see the part where it says: "Agree with me or shut the fuck up."
Im sure you dont, once Ive finished I'll quote you.
Not only are you a fool, you're a liar.

Given the source, I will not lose any sleep over that.


In
short, shennangins, and despite your demands, I also am going to
disagree with you. As far Im concerned, even your life has value despite
your efforts to devalue its worth.

It would seem that this whole thing hinges on this:

Explain the value of the life of a criminally-deranged sociopath who has tortured and murdered your children.

My
contention is that this individual's life is worthless and expendable,
and therefore not all human life is sacred/has value.

Have an argument that this individual's life is valuable?
Can you present it without pissing yourself?
If I have to answer anecdotal fantasy hypotheticals then so do you.
P.S. Fuck your patience. Shithead.

In your own words:

No skirting.
If my son turns out to be a criminally-deranged sociopath, then he's already dead.
I would volunteer to throw the switch myself.
Irrelevant though, right? Since your girlfriend has already whimpered:
"Anecdotal fantasy hypotheticals are not fact."

You
advocate the exact behaviour you deem worthy of death, if your son does
indeed turn out to be a criminally-deranged sociopath, perhaps that
could be said to be an example of heredity at work, but its like your
mommy said aint it if you are what you eat.
Exact
behavior? Are you kidding? The "throw the switch" metaphor
notwithstanding, since when is the legal, state-sanctioned, humane
execution of dangerous criminals (capital offenders) deemed the "exact
behavior" as the rape, torture, and murder of children? You're a fucking
idiot.

Im afraid Im not going dismiss the throw you switch metaphor, you quite clearly decry killing your children then say youd kill your children. You state those who kill like this deserve death of course if you ignore the fact you said that you can dismiss it, but you did say it. And if its idiotic to disagree with the barbarity of state sanctioned killing then guilty I'm a fucking idiot. And frankly if you are the measure in your model of an intelligent view Im happy to such.

Oh and I'll save you the trouble of replying
Im a retard and gay and shut the fuck up and bow before your wisdom and
realise Im being a crying girly girl who has no right to live. Retard? Gay? No right to live? What the fuck
are you talking about? Where is this coming from? I never said any of
that shit. It's easily verifiable. Did you really think that was going
to fly?
There's something wrong with you...
Fair enough, I'll happily take it you dont think I deserve to die or care what my sexual preference is or that I have a mental disability, but I'll remain a fucking idiot.

But in an attempt to let you argue your own arguement, I'll let you sum up in your own words:

Explain the value of the life of a criminally-deranged sociopath who has tortured and murdered your children.

My
contention is that this individual's life is worthless and expendable,
and therefore not all human life is sacred/has value.

No skirting.
If my son turns out to be a criminally-deranged sociopath, then he's already dead.
I would volunteer to throw the switch myself.
Explain the value of the life of a criminally-deranged sociopath who has tortured and murdered your children.

Explain the value of the life of a criminally-deranged sociopath who has tortured and murdered your children.

My
contention is that this individual's life is worthless and expendable,
and therefore not all human life is sacred/has value.

Rinse and repeat.

Now you get back to shouting at the voices in your head,

Get well soon.

Comparing apples and oranges,
Or comparing one sociopath to another, unless you contend that its normal to execute your pwn child. You probably do, whatever.
or just plain making shit up, is something a child does.
Making shit up, I copy and pasted your text.
Why do you do it? It just makes you look... desperate.
Who can say, why I engage in what I know is a pointless activity. I cant answer to how you percieve things and that is one pointless activity I'll refrain from.
You come across as a bandwagon-jumper, with nothing of substance to contribute, so you manufacture it.
See above.
I get it: I offended you. Deal with it.
Im not offfended in the slightest.

I would have loved to have read your actual ideas on this thread's subject,
I feel singularly commplimented as youve not shown that with the others who have posted here. Broadly speaking, I disagree with you that justice should take to account of circumstance of diminished responsabillity due to mental illness, I disagree with you that that the subject you hate are mentally ill. I disagree strenuously with capital punishment, I think that a retributive penal system is self defeating and believe that the justice system should follow a rehabiliative model.
rather than your whining about my attitude or the "way I argue",
I can understand that, but these seemed more pertenant to me.

but you've been caught blatantly lying about what I've said in this thread.
Your entitled to think that, but Im happy with what Ive said, others can judge for themselves.

You've thrown your credibility out the window.
Again, if you feel that I'll remain underwhelmed.
Was it worth it?
Yes and no.





(08-04-2012 09:39 AM)Quidsane Wrote:  First of all, stop trying to force your definition of disabled onto my argument.
Where you claim ownership and primacy.

But don't come with this penny-ante bullshit.
Where you dismiss deviation from your assertion, with an invitation to not come.
o/



I would concede that dehumanizing takes place in most cases.
But not ALL. Why is this so difficult for you?

I agree with you here.

I just thought of another example: what about accidental death?
When I accidentally backed over the old lady in my driveway, was she "dehumanized" by me?

An accient is not a purposeful act, thus this doesnt apply.

Already I've shown that your premise (at the very least) needs to be changed to:

"Human beings cannot PURPOSELY kill other human beings UNLESS they dehumanize them in some way."

Which I don't agree with either.
What about mercy killings or "assisted suicide" ?

This last example is an excellent point, one I hadnt considered I will add it to my list exceptions. Thanks for that.

This is what happens when you start throwing absolutes around, Ghost.

Again, I agree with you here, absolutes rarely work outside of maths.


or face his wrath and prepare to have your rep negged.

(by the way, you're spineless for doing that, bemore)


Your rep shows no negs, from bemore, or anyone else for that matter.

Legal Disclaimer: I am right, I reserve the right to be wrong without notice, opinions may change, your statutory rights are not affected, opinions expressed are not my own and are an approximation for the sake of communication.
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13-04-2012, 02:20 AM
RE: Human Worth
Humakt, your post contains a lot of nonsense, mostly due to the fact that you have been
mistakenly responding to things that weren't said to you.

"Ghost is not my buddy". Really? Why did you say that?

It would appear that you haven't read this whole thread and are therefore "talking out of your ass".
Have a look at post #31 HERE to see the origin and context of the statements you responded to.
It's clear that you have no clue what's going on here. Rock on.

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13-04-2012, 02:33 AM
RE: Human Worth
(13-04-2012 02:20 AM)Quidsane Wrote:  Humakt, your post contains a lot of nonsense, mostly due to the fact that you have been
mistakenly responding to things that weren't said to you.

"Ghost is not my buddy". Really? Why did you say that?

It would appear that you haven't read this whole thread and are therefore "talking out of your ass".
Have a look at post #31 HERE to see the origin and context of the statements you responded to.
It's clear that you have no clue what's going on here. Rock on.
Indeed they were'nt and I did, I was gonna edit that section out, but as you posted so promptly I leave it in so your point still has context. I should have been more cafeful in addressing those points, but as they where in the post addressed to me I answere them. My bad.

As to the rest, whatever.

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13-04-2012, 03:52 AM
RE: Human Worth
(13-04-2012 01:44 AM)Humakt Wrote:  Your rep shows no negs, from bemore, or anyone else for that matter.
I removed it.

You're never going to say the things you want to say.
The things you want to change will usually stay that way
The promises you break outweigh the ones you keep.
Paint upon the wall for the hundredth time.

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13-04-2012, 11:20 AM
RE: Human Worth
Sup, Quidsane.

My relationship with my kitchen utensils is my own!


Quote:Your example of anecdotal evidence is not analogous to my anecdotal evidence and you damn well know that.


No I do not.


Quote:I gave you a hypothethical example of how one human being could kill another without dehumanizing them in ANY way.

My point exactly.


Quote:To be fair, perhaps the phrase "TOTAL bullshit" was the wrong one (but not the totally wrong one, haha).

Totally wrong.

Quote:I would concede that dehumanizing takes place in most cases. But not ALL. Why is this so difficult for you?


Because it's incorrect.

Quote:I just thought of another example: what about accidental death? When I accidentally backed over the old lady in my driveway, was she "dehumanized" by me?

Really? Are you trying to tell me that THIS is what the argument has been about? I think it was reasonable for me to have assumed that we all realised we were talking about murder since, you know, we were talking about DELIBERATELY killing other people.



Quote:Already I've shown that your premise (at the very least) needs to be changed to: "Human beings cannot PURPOSELY kill other human beings UNLESS they dehumanize them in some way."

Finally, we agree on something.



Quote:Which I don't agree with either.

I spoke too soon.

Quote:What about mercy killings or "assisted suicide" ?

Again, we were not talking about assisted suiciding sociopaths.



Quote:This is what happens when you start throwing absolutes around, Ghost.

Again, we're discussing deliberately taking the life of people who don't want you to take their lives.



Quote:Also, it's not the term "anecdotal fantasy hypothetical" that is the issue. As I've explained, it would seem that when I give an example, it's OK to dismiss it. But when bemore proposes an anecdotal fantasy hypothetical, you had better by god acknowledge it, or face his wrath and prepare to have your rep negged. (by the way, you're spineless for doing that, bemore)

I wasn't paying attention to what he was saying to be frank. No slight against you, Bemore.


Quote:I never said or implied this: "Your position is that if someone harms another it is an unforgivable act regardless of context." Are you out of your mind? Regardless of context? Where in the hell are you getting that from? I was very specific, very detailed, and supplied you with more than enough context. Your summary of my position is FALSE.


I'm tired. Think what you will.

Quote:Your paragraph on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was moving. Seriously. I was unaware of it. It's inspiring in many ways. Truly.


Snootch.

Quote:But it my mind, I cannot see how it would apply to a sociopath.

I don't know if a sociopath, pre-treatment, would be interested in restorative justice, but that's not the point. The point was not everyone views justice in eye-for-an-eye terms. The associated point is that sociopaths can be treated.


Quote:And, again, I disagree that being a sociopath is a mental illness.

As you well know, the definition of what constitutes mental illness changes with each passing year.

Homosexuality was considered a mental illness until 1973!

Doctor's used to smoke. Soooooo, what, I should never trust a doctor again? I should think that the sum total of medical knowledge is worthless? There isn't a psychologist or a psychiatrist on the planet that wouldn't classify sociopathy as a mental health disorder.... Sorry, after a little research, the DSM says that sociopathy and psychopathy are synonymns and better referred to as Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) although psychopathy is still considered a subset of ASPD. Regardless, we're still talking about mental health disorders. Here's the million dollar question. If sociopathy, psychopathy or ASPD are NOT mental illness, then what the hell are they? Lifestyle choices?


Quote:Sociopaths are not crazy; they simply have no ability to feel empathy.

Ah yes, crazy. Diagnostic tool of the dilettante since 1534. Sorry, but crazy doesn't actually mean anything. And since humans, universally, around age 7 develop the ability to feel empathy, then not having that ability is, by definition, a disorder.


Quote:They can appear to laugh and cry and to be charming, but are absolutely lacking in what it is to be human: the ability to put yourself into the shoes of another.

So somehow empathy is the sole qualification that one needs to be considered human? Seems pretty arbitrary. So children from birth to 7 are not human?


Quote:The sociopath is just as non-human as a table lamp, the difference being that I am not afraid that the table lamp is going to destroy my life when I let down my guard or turn my back.

OK, so you're afraid of sociopaths. I'm supposed to let you butcher them because you have an irrational phobia based on wonky stereotypes? I would LOVE to see some shred of empirical evidence that illustrates exactly how sociopaths are the equivalent of lamps. That would be a fascinating read. Since I can assume it doesn't exist on account of it being impossible, I'll say this. You comparing a human being to a lamp is an act of dehumanisation. The harder you argue, the more you prove my point. You speak of sociopaths the way you do BECAUSE you don't view them as human.


Quote:A sociopath cannot be forgiven. There is nothing to forgive them for.

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that you can forgive people who "know not what they do". I seem to remember some dude talking about that once. But all of that is irrelevant. They can be treated pre and post crime. They have a shot at living a normal life. Who the hell are you to say they don't deserve to live?

Quote:It doesn't apply. Not in terms of humanity. They have no humanity to deny.

That's just vile. Straight up.


Quote:And let's please dispense with "man in wheelchair is the same as a psychopathic killer because they're both disabled."

I don't remember using the word disabled. Or wheelchair. But hey. I made a comparison between mental illness and physical illness and pointed to the fact that for some reason, we have sympathy for and want nothing but healing for the physically ill, but for some arbitrary reason (shrouded in historical bias) we could give a fuck about the mentally ill; as if there's some empirical distinction between the two, which there is NOT. The history of the systematic stigmatisation of the mentally ill is CLEAR AS DAY and well documented. So if you want to fall back on old prejudices, go ahead, but don't be surprised when I don't give it any credence.


Quote:You (and others) are playing fast and loose with the word disabled, and you know it.

No, actually, I'm not. I never used the word.


Quote:If you really believe that I'm advocating the execution of all "people with broken legs", then I'm afraid any further exchange with you is pointless. I hope that's not the case.

If you really think that's what I'm saying then further exchange with you is pointless. I hope that's not the case. I'm saying precisely the opposite. You'd never in a million years consider killing someone because they had a broken leg, or cancer or a fucking hang nail. But for some reason, you're all about it for the mentally ill. I'm demonstrating that your position vis-a-vis the non-human status of the mentally ill based on their illness is irrational, arbitrary, insupportable and dangerous.



Quote:No, haha, I won't be licking your balls.

Ball sack, thank you. Then don't take petty shots at me.

Quote:But I'll bet they need it, what with all of that urine your sitting in that keeps stinging the chafing you recieved as a result of improper cheese grater usage.

If I had urine-stung cheese-grated balls, the last thing I'd want anyone to do is lick them.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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