Human Worth
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13-04-2012, 12:16 PM
RE: Human Worth
(13-04-2012 11:20 AM)Ghost Wrote:  
Quote:What about mercy killings or "assisted suicide" ?
Again, we were not talking about assisted suiciding sociopaths.
Quote:This is what happens when you start throwing absolutes around, Ghost.
Again, we're discussing deliberately taking the life of people who don't want you to take their lives.
Ghost your redefining your terms there "Human beings cannot purposely kill other human beings UNLESS they dehumanize them in some way." makes no mention of the humans being killed desires about being killed. Nor does your hypothesis specify sociopaths, only humans. Quisdane makes a vaiid point, assisted suicide would indeed be an example of the killing of a human that did not involve the dehumanisation of the person being killed.

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13-04-2012, 12:23 PM
RE: Human Worth
Anything of worth to that thing (like to you or I) is perceived value.
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13-04-2012, 01:12 PM
RE: Human Worth
Humakt,

I'm compromised by the fact that I'm not writing a doctoral dissertation, but a post. I assumed that because we were talking about murder, we were talking about murder. By your rationale, people who commit suicide aren't dehumanising themselves either. I used a generic word "kill" because we were having a specific conversation. Sue me.

ON EDIT: I did in fact suggest further reading.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-04-2012, 01:31 PM
RE: Human Worth
Quote:Again, we're discussing deliberately taking the life of people who don't want you to take their lives.

WTF? Hobo Say what?
That's one hell of a disclaimer there, Ghost.
That part in bold changes this entire discussion.
It would appear that you are altering the premise to win an argument.
I say argument, because you've already proclaimed this not to be a debate.

Quote:Really? Are you trying to tell me that THIS is what the argument has been about?

This argument has been about semantics from the moment you made this blanket statement:

"Decades of science points clearly and incontrovertibly to one thing.
Human beings cannot kill other human beings UNLESS they dehumanise them in some way."



I'm not trying to trash everything you say. You have made some valid points.
Yes, I do have a beef against sociopaths.
Whether it's prejudice, bigotry, or full-blown hatred,
I would find it next to impossible to change my view of these insects.
I have personal knowledge of what they are capable of.
Bigotry through fear? Accepted. Bigotry through irrational fear? Not a chance.

Quote:Doctor's used to smoke. Soooooo, what, I should never trust a doctor again? I should think that the sum total of medical knowledge is worthless?

No. I didn't even imply that. You have a hair trigger when it comes to jumping to conclusions, you know that?
The point was that what is considered mental illness has been shown to change over time.
Don't overthink it. It's a simple observation.

Quote:I don't know if a sociopath, pre-treatment, would be interested in restorative justice, but that's not the point. The point was not everyone views justice in eye-for-an-eye terms. The associated point is that sociopaths can be treated.

The sticking point here is what you refer to as treated.
You keep mentioning how empathy develops around age seven.
You also seem to be aware that this doesn't happen in a sociopath.
So, take this for a spin: Sociopaths don't have the ability to de-humanize anyone.
Interesting, isn't it? To de-humanize implies the innate ability to "humanize", if you will.
You can't remove a nail that's never been hammered.

NO amount of drugs or therapy can change a sociopath. In fact, therapy makes them more dangerous.
To a sociopath, therapy is a goldmine; an instruction manual for how to move among the human populace
undetected, until they choose to reveal themselves. By then, it's usually too late for their human prey.
Lives are destroyed.
If a sociopath decides to pretend to "be well" by mimicking positive human traits and characteristics,
you would call that treated. It's not treated, it's an act.
Just going by your statements, it would seem that you're not aware of this.

Quote:Ah yes, crazy. Diagnostic tool of the dilettante since 1534. Sorry, but crazy doesn't actually mean anything.

Now you're arguing semantics? I wasn't using it as a diagnostic tool.
I was using it as as a descriptor: as in insane, kookoo, bonkers, apeshit, or just plain "lost their mind".
Go ask your friends and neighbors what crazy means. Of course crazy means something.
(Well, maybe not to someone with an ever-morphing premise, haha.) Big Grin

Quote:So somehow empathy is the sole qualification that one needs to be considered human? Seems pretty arbitrary. So children from birth to 7 are not human?

I hadn't considered this. Maybe "ability to feel empathy" could be the qualification? But then how would one know? Not sure on this...
Side note: According to DSM-IV, the term sociopath only applies to adults.
Sociopathy isn't diagnosed until a child has reached the age of 18.
It can most definitely be present before then, and is most often diagnosed as Conduct Disorder.


Quote:I'm supposed to let you butcher them because you have an irrational phobia based on wonky stereotypes?

First: I wasn't asking for your permission. Laughat
Second: You say butcher, I say tomato euthanize.
Third: Irrational phobia? Wonky stereotypes? Those are misplaced assumptions. Go read the sociopath thread.


Quote:That's one way of looking at it. Another is that you can forgive people who "know not what they do". I seem to remember some dude talking about that once. But all of that is irrelevant. They can be treated pre and post crime. They have a shot at living a normal life. Who the hell are you to say they don't deserve to live?


A sociopath knows exactly what it is doing, a fact you don't seem to understand.
A sociopath can appear to be living a normal life, yes.
But they never stop scheming, planning, conspiring, etc., to dominate/wield power over others.
It's all they know. It's what they are. It's what they do. We are cardboard cut-outs to them.
Who the hell am I to say they don't deserve to live?
I'm a victim. I'm someone who has a vast understanding, through years of suffering and years of research,
of exactly what these things are, and what they're capable of.


Quote:You'd never in a million years consider killing someone because they had a broken leg, or cancer or a fucking hang nail.

You're right, I wouldn't. I feel empathy for fellow human beings.


Quote:But for some reason, you're all about it for the mentally ill.

Only a precisely defined subset of what you refer to as "mentally ill".
Not all mentally ill people.



Quote:That's just vile. Straight up.

Yes, but remember I'm a human being first and foremost and deserve to be treated as such,
regardless of how vile you might think my position is.

sorry I couldn't resist it Smile


Quote:Again, we were not talking about assisted suiciding sociopaths.


You're right. This particular point wasn't about sociopaths. This was about mercy killing.
This was about the killing of human beings to put an end to their pain and suffering.
This is a HUMANE thing to do.
It seems to me that this is an example of one human being killing another purposely
with no dehumanizing whatsoever.

So perhaps the premise should be altered even further to:

"In most cases, human beings cannot purposely kill other human beings who don't want you to take their lives unless they dehumanize them in some way."

Even I wouldn't argue with that!
If you had said that in the first place, well, you know the rest...


Wow. A few posts from us without overt nastiness!
People will talk.

Take care of your ball-sack. Big Grin

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13-04-2012, 01:49 PM
RE: Human Worth
(13-04-2012 01:12 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Humakt,

I'm compromised by the fact that I'm not writing a doctoral dissertation, but a post. I assumed that because we were talking about murder, we were talking about murder. By your rationale, people who commit suicide aren't dehumanising themselves either. I used a generic word "kill" because we were having a specific conversation. Sue me.

ON EDIT: I did in fact suggest further reading.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
No need for litigation Smile. just saying he makes a fair point is all.

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13-04-2012, 01:49 PM
RE: Human Worth
Ghost, the only reason that I brought extreme examples into this
(sociopathy, pedophiles, criminally-deranged, blah blah blah)
is because "who don't want you to take their lives" was never mentioned.
I can't stress it enough.
That disclaimer changes much of the dynamic of the thread.

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13-04-2012, 01:57 PM
RE: Human Worth
All right. We've jumped the shark on this one. We out!

Before you ride off into the sunset with your hatred at your side, do consider this sage advice.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-04-2012, 02:01 PM
RE: Human Worth
I would like to get back to this:

"They are human beings first and foremost and deserve to be treated as such, regardless of how vile you might think their position is."

I've already said my piece on "They are human beings first and foremost".
(i.e., I do not think that everything that looks human is human, that to be human requires a conscience.)

The last part I'm torn on.

"regardless of how vile you might think their position is"

Really? ANY position? I'm not so sure of that.
I can think of several positions one could take that would cause --nay, require-- me to refuse to treat them with dignity.
I don't think I could subscribe to what you are proposing.

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13-04-2012, 04:35 PM
RE: Human Worth
(13-04-2012 02:01 PM)Quidsane Wrote:  I would like to get back to this:

"They are human beings first and foremost and deserve to be treated as such, regardless of how vile you might think their position is."

I've already said my piece on "They are human beings first and foremost".
(i.e., I do not think that everything that looks human is human, that to be human requires a conscience.)

The last part I'm torn on.

"regardless of how vile you might think their position is"

Really? ANY position? I'm not so sure of that.
I can think of several positions one could take that would cause --nay, require-- me to refuse to treat them with dignity.
I don't think I could subscribe to what you are proposing.

This is going to sound lame on likely many levels, but your oppinion is real strong and I am a bit intrigued as to what you would think in this scenario:
A mother beats her children senseless. They are taken from her for a number of years. One of her two children when returned to her acts in ways that are less than orthodox. For example,
This child when he disagrees with his mother takes his own feces and rubs it on himself and says that if he is to be treated like a pile of dung, then he is going to be dung. He also abuses his teachers and fellow students when he does not get his way. He even shows hostility towards a household animal just because for some reason the sight of the thing makes him want to hit it.
To make matters worse, the mother has a knee jerk reaction of retreat rather than to exert some discipline upon this boy.
Is the child so much to blame for any sociopathic behavior, if exhibited?
Is he less of a life?
Are there limitations or certain qualities that define who is worthy of life and who is not?
I ask you do not take this as an attack. I have been reading a lot of your responses and find them....rather....interesting. Even if not exactly shared. So I ask to perhaps get a clearer perspective of your point of view.

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13-04-2012, 08:51 PM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2012 09:06 PM by Quidsane.)
RE: Human Worth
(13-04-2012 04:35 PM)AnotherSinner Wrote:  This is going to sound lame on likely many levels, but your oppinion is real strong and I am a bit intrigued as to what you would think in this scenario:
A mother beats her children senseless. They are taken from her for a number of years. One of her two children when returned to her acts in ways that are less than orthodox. For example,
This child when he disagrees with his mother takes his own feces and rubs it on himself and says that if he is to be treated like a pile of dung, then he is going to be dung. He also abuses his teachers and fellow students when he does not get his way. He even shows hostility towards a household animal just because for some reason the sight of the thing makes him want to hit it.
To make matters worse, the mother has a knee jerk reaction of retreat rather than to exert some discipline upon this boy.
Is the child so much to blame for any sociopathic behavior, if exhibited?
Is he less of a life?
Are there limitations or certain qualities that define who is worthy of life and who is not?
I ask you do not take this as an attack. I have been reading a lot of your responses and find them....rather....interesting. Even if not exactly shared. So I ask to perhaps get a clearer perspective of your point of view.

No, I don't find this lame. Your scenario is more than welcome. Thumbsup
This child is not to blame. The mother is. He is not less of a life.
The child has clearly been abused. Doesn't mean the child is not a future sociopath,
but there is no conclusive proof that a sociopath can be abused into being. Best
working theory is that sociopathy is genetic (as opposed to hereditary); meaning two
sociopaths can't create future sociopaths by means of procreation. Also, it's highly unlikely
that a child diagnosed with Conduct Disorder (that's what it's called when a sociopath is under 18)
would be rubbing feces on itself. They tend to prefer parental manipulation, animal abuse,
a fascination with fire, and emotional outbursts. But exhibiting some sociopathic behaviors
does not necessarily a sociopath make. For proper diagnosis, there needs to be a solid
history of many sociopathic/psychopathic behaviors.

"Most psychopaths begin to exhibit serious behavioral problems at an early age. These might include persistent lying, cheating, theft, fire setting, truancy, class disruption, substance abuse, vandalism, violence, bullying, running away and precocious sexuality. Because many children exhibit some of these behaviors at one time or another, especially children raised in violent neighborhoods or in disrupted or abusive families, it is important to emphasize that the psychopaths's history of such behaviors is more extensive and serious than that of most others, even when compared with those of siblings and friends raised in similar settings. Early cruelty to animals is usually a sign of serious emotional or behavioral problems. Cruelty to other children—including siblings—is often part of the young psychopaths's inability to experience the sort of empathy that checks normal people's impulses to inflict pain, even when enraged."
--Robert D. Hare, PhD.

Protect yourself from sociopaths: Learn to recognize the traits—then stay away (this is a link)


Quote:Are there limitations or certain qualities that define who is worthy of life and who is not?


Well, the rape and murder of innocent children should be punishable by extermination.
Why these crimes were committed is irrelevant, in my opinion, and shouldn't be considered.
Pedophiles, child molesters, child killers, etc., are not worthy of life. When you commit
that heinous of a crime, your life is forfeit. Who cares why you did it? Doesn't matter anymore.
Also, erasing this element from existence would benefit society; it would save lives.


I would also say empathy is a key quality. Without empathy, you can't feel love or remorse or guilt.
Without empathy, one is not human, in the sense that there is no sense of shared humanity.
Sociopathy is not a disease, so there is no cure. The ones on the extreme end of the scale
(from Borderline Personality Disorder to full-blown serial killer and everything in between)
are con artists who absolutely will not stop until they've destroyed you, or have grown bored
with torturing you. Most of the time they leave the lives of others in ruins. They are cold and
calculating and know exactly what they are doing. They cannot be rehabilitated or "fixed"
because they are not broken.

Dr. Hare describes it like this:

"Psychopaths show a stunning lack of concern for the devastating effects their actions have on others. Often they are completely forthright about the matter, calmly stating that they have no sense of guilt, are not sorry for the pain and destruction they have caused, and that there is no reason for them to be concerned."

Imagine a human being walking around with the actual morals of a reptile.
The question is not if they will destroy someone else's life, but when.
I don't think that should be allowed to happen.
I stand by my contention that these creatures are not worthy of life.
Here is another element that, if erased from existence, would benefit society by saving lives.
I understand that most will disagree with that assessment. Nevertheless,
it is my sincere opinion that diagnosed sociopaths/psychopaths of this
particular magnitude should be ground up and fed to alligators.

So those are some examples (albeit extreme ones) of "people" who are unfit to breathe the
same air as the rest of us. I know it's not a popular opinion, nor is it a particularly pleasant
one. But it's an honest one. And it's one I can live with.

(13-04-2012 01:57 PM)Ghost Wrote:  All right. We've jumped the shark on this one. We out!

Before you ride off into the sunset with your hatred at your side, do consider this sage advice.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Love the vid! But I have to say:

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. Thumbsup

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