Human Worth
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14-04-2012, 07:30 AM
RE: Human Worth
Sup, Sinner.

No question is lame.

The brain is an organ. As such, it's subject to all manner of disease and dysfunction. Bones break, hearts fail, hair is lost, cancers grow and mental faculties are compromised. Disease, illness, injury, disorder, these are all things that happen TO people. The people they happen to are not responsible (unless you want to argue that people who put themselves in harms way are partly to blame, but even in that scenario, it's still something that happened TO them).

Those who are mentally ill did not choose to be mentally ill. It happened TO them. They should no more be blamed for being mentally ill than a woman should be blamed for having breast cancer, or a teenager should be blamed for appendicitis, or someone who was hit by a car should be blamed for having broken bones, or an octogenarian should be blamed for having Parkinson's, or a bystander should be blamed for being shot by a stray bullet in a drive-by, or a child born with Trisomy-21 should be blamed for having Down's Syndrome, or a thalidomide baby should be blamed for having no hands.

Even child abuse has a source. No one wakes up and thinks, "I think I'm going to beat my children unmercifully for no reason today." Saying child abuse has a source doesn't forgive the act, it allows us to deal with the abuser after the fact and, more importantly, it allows us to address those causes that drive people to it so that less people will be driven to it in the future. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure as they say. It's easy to simply look at a child abuser and say, "I could never do that, that's just wrong, there's something wrong with them and they should be cut out of existence." We like to think that there are two types of human; those who commit crimes and us. We like to think that we're incapable of perpetrating suffering, but every single human is capable of every single act of kindness and depravity. It has something to do with their genetic predispositions to be sure, but it is also affected profoundly by the environment they developed in.

I'm not a fan of punitive justice because it deals with symptoms, not causes. But in a punitive system, this abusive mother is simply to be punished. The only thing that is served by that is retribution. She's a human and can be helped.

I'm not a diagnostician, but it seems to me that the line from abuse, to a sense of being dung, to smearing dung on himself is a direct one. Again, no human lives in a vacuum. This child didn't just wake up one day and think, "maybe I should smear myself with shit today."

The child is not to be blamed for sociopathic behaviour. That is about as reasonable as blaming the devil. It's this notion that there is something corrupted or corrupting within the child. But science tells us a different story. Science tells us that something happened TO this child. So this child should absolutely NOT be blamed for being sociopathic. This doesn't mean that he gets a free pass to behave any way he'd like, but that what is important is not blame, but empathy and treatment.

Is he less of a life?... You know, I don't know how many times I've heard that in different contexts. It is the battle cry of those that wish to harm or kill others. There's nothing subtle here, no nuance, whether it's Hutus, Turks, Serbs, Whites, Nazi's, Stalinists, the Khmer Rouge, gay bashers or sexists, they all have an argument for why Tutsis (cockroaches), Armenians (giavours), Bosnians (balije), blacks (niggers), Jews (mongrels), Russian civilians (saboteurs), Cambodian's who wore glasses (intellectuals), homosexuals (faggots), or women (bitches) are less than human. Is he less of a life? How can someone with even a cursory knowledge of the 20th century suggest that? Of course he's human.

Are there limitations or certain qualities that define who is worthy of life and who is not? None.

Should people who are a danger to themselves and to others be left to run amok? Of course not. Steps should be taken. But while those steps are being taken, we must never lose track of their humanity.

Hey, Quidsane.

I know I said I was out, but something you said drew me back in.

Quote:Without empathy, one is not human, in the sense that there is no sense of shared humanity.

So does your total lack of empathy for the plight of those humans suffering from mental disorders qualify you as a non-human?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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14-04-2012, 09:20 AM
RE: Human Worth
(14-04-2012 07:30 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Quidsane.

I know I said I was out, but something you said drew me back in.
Quote:Without empathy, one is not human, in the sense that there is no sense of shared humanity.
So does your total lack of empathy for the plight of those humans suffering from mental disorders qualify you as a non-human?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

I don't have a lack of empathy for the plight of those humans suffering
from just any mental disorder, other than what I've specifically mentioned.
I do have a lack of empathy for the plight of those particular creatures I mentioned earlier.

And, as I've said, in the case of sociopaths, I don't see them as humans suffering from mental disorders.

If "ability to feel empathy" is the qualifier:

I have the ability to feel empathy. Therefore, I'm human.
A sociopath does not. Therefore they are not.

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14-04-2012, 11:31 AM
RE: Human Worth
(14-04-2012 07:30 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Sup, Sinner.

No question is lame.

The brain is an organ. As such, it's subject to all manner of disease and dysfunction. Bones break, hearts fail, hair is lost, cancers grow and mental faculties are compromised. Disease, illness, injury, disorder, these are all things that happen TO people. The people they happen to are not responsible (unless you want to argue that people who put themselves in harms way are partly to blame, but even in that scenario, it's still something that happened TO them).

Those who are mentally ill did not choose to be mentally ill. It happened TO them. They should no more be blamed for being mentally ill than a woman should be blamed for having breast cancer, or a teenager should be blamed for appendicitis, or someone who was hit by a car should be blamed for having broken bones, or an octogenarian should be blamed for having Parkinson's, or a bystander should be blamed for being shot by a stray bullet in a drive-by, or a child born with Trisomy-21 should be blamed for having Down's Syndrome, or a thalidomide baby should be blamed for having no hands.

Even child abuse has a source. No one wakes up and thinks, "I think I'm going to beat my children unmercifully for no reason today." Saying child abuse has a source doesn't forgive the act, it allows us to deal with the abuser after the fact and, more importantly, it allows us to address those causes that drive people to it so that less people will be driven to it in the future. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure as they say. It's easy to simply look at a child abuser and say, "I could never do that, that's just wrong, there's something wrong with them and they should be cut out of existence." We like to think that there are two types of human; those who commit crimes and us. We like to think that we're incapable of perpetrating suffering, but every single human is capable of every single act of kindness and depravity. It has something to do with their genetic predispositions to be sure, but it is also affected profoundly by the environment they developed in.

I'm not a fan of punitive justice because it deals with symptoms, not causes. But in a punitive system, this abusive mother is simply to be punished. The only thing that is served by that is retribution. She's a human and can be helped.

I'm not a diagnostician, but it seems to me that the line from abuse, to a sense of being dung, to smearing dung on himself is a direct one. Again, no human lives in a vacuum. This child didn't just wake up one day and think, "maybe I should smear myself with shit today."

The child is not to be blamed for sociopathic behaviour. That is about as reasonable as blaming the devil. It's this notion that there is something corrupted or corrupting within the child. But science tells us a different story. Science tells us that something happened TO this child. So this child should absolutely NOT be blamed for being sociopathic. This doesn't mean that he gets a free pass to behave any way he'd like, but that what is important is not blame, but empathy and treatment.

Is he less of a life?... You know, I don't know how many times I've heard that in different contexts. It is the battle cry of those that wish to harm or kill others. There's nothing subtle here, no nuance, whether it's Hutus, Turks, Serbs, Whites, Nazi's, Stalinists, the Khmer Rouge, gay bashers or sexists, they all have an argument for why Tutsis (cockroaches), Armenians (giavours), Bosnians (balije), blacks (niggers), Jews (mongrels), Russian civilians (saboteurs), Cambodian's who wore glasses (intellectuals), homosexuals (faggots), or women (bitches) are less than human. Is he less of a life? How can someone with even a cursory knowledge of the 20th century suggest that? Of course he's human.

Are there limitations or certain qualities that define who is worthy of life and who is not? None.

Should people who are a danger to themselves and to others be left to run amok? Of course not. Steps should be taken. But while those steps are being taken, we must never lose track of their humanity.

Hey, Quidsane.

I know I said I was out, but something you said drew me back in.

Quote:Without empathy, one is not human, in the sense that there is no sense of shared humanity.

So does your total lack of empathy for the plight of those humans suffering from mental disorders qualify you as a non-human?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
You and I are basically of the same oppinion then.

A man's greatest pitfall is none other than himself. For only he can dig himself a hole he cannot get out of.
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14-04-2012, 05:58 PM (This post was last modified: 14-04-2012 06:11 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Human Worth
(05-04-2012 04:05 PM)Dom Wrote:  I think all life is worth something.

Found myself appreciating the mold in my shower for their sacrifice today as I sent them to their mildew afterlife. Still Tilex'd 'em of course, but I find consolation in the fact that I took the time to first acknowledge them. Smile

Breathing - it's more art than science.
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16-04-2012, 01:51 PM
RE: Human Worth
(14-04-2012 05:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 04:05 PM)Dom Wrote:  I think all life is worth something.

Found myself appreciating the mold in my shower for their sacrifice today as I sent them to their mildew afterlife. Still Tilex'd 'em of course, but I find consolation in the fact that I took the time to first acknowledge them. Smile
Lol Girly Man, you are a riot!

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16-04-2012, 05:43 PM
RE: Human Worth
I had a thought. Whether or not this group or that group, this person or that person, is a human and deserves that distinction is a thought. There's nothing real about it, nothing concrete. That isn't to say that thoughts are valueless, far from it, but that they change. We might decide that this day they are but tomorrow they're not. But a human life. That is real. That is concrete. And if we snuff it out, it's gone. As Othello said, speaking to the candle's flame and to his sleeping love Desdemona:
Quote:If I quench thee, thou flaming minister,
I can again thy former light restore
Should I repent me. But once put out thy light,
Thou cunning’st pattern of excelling nature,
I know not where is that Promethean heat
That can thy light relume. When I have plucked thy rose
I cannot give it vital growth again,
It must needs wither.
Should I repent me. That's what I'm getting at when I talk about the impermanence of thought.

If we assume that all life is precious, that all humans are deserving of their humanity, then we never run the risk of being wrong. We never run the risk of snuffing out a life that should have flourished. We never have to explain to our grandchildren why we perpetrated an atrocity.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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16-04-2012, 06:46 PM
RE: Human Worth
(16-04-2012 05:43 PM)Ghost Wrote:  If we assume that all life is precious, that all humans are deserving of their humanity, then we never run the risk of being wrong.

If we assume that all life is precious, that all things that appear human are deserving of our humanity,
then we run a substantial risk of being wrong.

Quote:We never run the risk of snuffing out a life that should have flourished.

We run the risk of a sociopath/psychopath/pedophile/rapist/murderer snuffing out a life that should have flourished.

Quote:We never have to explain to our grandchildren why we perpetrated an atrocity.

Instead, we would have to explain to our grandchildren why we allowed an atrocity to be perpetrated.

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16-04-2012, 07:37 PM
RE: Human Worth
Quisdane.

There is a place within the poles of the false dichotomy you are creating. Some people with mental illness can be dangers to themselves and others. Steps should be taken to ensure that that danger is minimised. But we don't have to deny their humanity to do it.

I pity your life. It's a dark and disgusting place of fear and panic. It's enemy territory that you live in like an occupying army, trying to sanitise all potential enemies. It's the world in which Italians and Japanese are interned. Where Muslims are pulled off of planes. Where people are put to death because they MIGHT do something wrong someday.

Yes. People die. Yes. It's tragic. But prophylactic justice destroys more lives than the worst psycho or terrorist or mugger or any other group one chooses to be terrified of ever could.

I don't say this to condemn you. I understand the logic behind it. Actus reus and mens rea are old terms. But I refuse to live my life in terror. I refuse to wall myself away in some bunker paralysed with fear of problems and what could be. I want to live life, out in the open, in beauty, looking for solutions.

It's cool. I get where you're coming from. But I've been called a nigger. I know what it's like to look into someone's eyes and know that they don't consider me a human being. I've met people who ran through the woods holding children in their arms while being chased by government attack dogs. I've shaken the hand of the Ambassador of the Republic of Armenia and heard him tell me how he feels knowing that 75% of the Armenians alive in 1915 died that same year and that even today, only 21 countries recognise it as a genocide. I've seen the empty seat next to me in class because the girl that sat there was murdered and burnt by acid because she was only a woman. I know Muslims, good people, who have been hounded for flying while Arab. I heard David Suzuki, one of the greatest men in Canada, talk about being placed in a camp when he was a child. I know the mentally ill and the horrific struggles they endure day in and day out only to be demonised and feared and treated as sub-humans. I'm a Darwinist who has read the books about those Eugenicists that bastardised that brilliant man's words and used them as an excuse to murder. The Trail of Tears. The Residential Schools. The Killing Fields. The Death March. The Camps. Blankets infested with small pox. There is a time that I would have been property. And these are merely the things that come to my mind inside of a few minutes. I cannot subscribe to your world view. I leave you to it, but I will have no part of it.

May your life be filled with my well wishes.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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16-04-2012, 08:56 PM
RE: Human Worth
Ghost.

Again I disagree with you, present an alternate viewpoint, and you attack me personally.
AGAIN.
Well, fuck, I thought we were done with that.

(16-04-2012 07:37 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Some people with mental illness can be dangers to themselves and others. Steps should be taken to ensure that that danger is minimised. But we don't have to deny their humanity to do it.

Agreed.
Mentally ill? Well, we might decide that this day they are but tomorrow they're not.
But the particular creatures I mentioned are not mentally ill, not human, and have no humanity to deny.

Quote:I pity your life. It's a dark and disgusting place of fear and panic. It's enemy territory that you live in like an occupying army, trying to sanitise all potential enemies. It's the world in which Italians and Japanese are interned. Where Muslims are pulled off of planes. Where people are put to death because they MIGHT do something wrong someday.

You don't know enough about my life to make the assumptions you've made. They are baseless and childish.
And you've got a lot of fucking nerve implying that I'm some sort of racist!
You keep trying to pin all of these prejudices on me that I don't subscribe to. THAT is bullshit.

Quote:It's cool. I get where you're coming from. But I've been called a nigger. I know what it's like to look into someone's eyes and know that they don't consider me a human being. I've met people who ran through the woods holding children in their arms while being chased by government attack dogs. I've shaken the hand of the Ambassador of the Republic of Armenia and heard him tell me how he feels knowing that 75% of the Armenians alive in 1915 died that same year and that even today, only 21 countries recognise it as a genocide. I've seen the empty seat next to me in class because the girl that sat there was murdered and burnt by acid because she was only a woman. I know Muslims, good people, who have been hounded for flying while Arab. I heard David Suzuki, one of the greatest men in Canada, talk about being placed in a camp when he was a child. I know the mentally ill and the horrific struggles they endure day in and day out only to be demonised and feared and treated as sub-humans. I'm a Darwinist who has read the books about those Eugenicists that bastardised that brilliant man's words and used them as an excuse to murder. The Trail of Tears. The Residential Schools. The Killing Fields. The Death March. The Camps. Blankets infested with small pox. There is a time that I would have been property. And these are merely the things that come to my mind inside of a few minutes. I cannot subscribe to your world view. I leave you to it, but I will have no part of it.

What the fuck does you being black have to do with anything that I'M saying?
The people who called you "nigger", the people who looked at you as though you weren't human?
They were dead wrong to do that. What is the relevance of disclosing that?
Seriously. You're barking up the wrong correlation.
A sociopath/psychopath can NEVER know what it's like to look into someone's eyes and know
that they aren't considered a human being; because it's impossible. They already know.

Quote:I cannot subscribe to your world view. I leave you to it, but I will have no part of it.

Has anyone asked you to? Huh
The implication here is that I have been trying to talk you into something, which is absurd.
You made your unbending position crystal clear from the beginning. Not a debate, remember?

I pity your life. It's an imaginary place of chickenshit passive-aggressiveness. It's a grand delusion that you live in; a world of no dissenting ideas, with you the self-crowned king, trying to sanitize all political incorrectness. It's the world in which sociopaths and pedophiles are interned, stupidly believed to be broken, and therefore fixable. Where Air-Marshals are pulled off of planes, because psychopath hijackers just need to be reasoned with. Where very real danger is denied in hushed tones. Where people are deemed unworthy, personally attacked, and summarily dismissed because they DARE to disagree with you.

You're a flapping head. Your bleeding-heartedness is SO misplaced.
If I called you an asshole and told you to go fuck yourself,
you'd accuse me of being a bigot for "dehumanizing" assholes.

*sigh*

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16-04-2012, 09:51 PM
RE: Human Worth
Quidsane.

Do yourself a favour and listen to Penn.

I know you don't see the correlation. That's the sad part.

You're not a racist. You're are however a bigot.

You don't subscribe to racism, or sexism, or homophobia but your mentality is cut from the same cloth. That's what I've illustrated. That's what you cannot see. But others can. So I'm good with that.

Sanitise political incorrectness? Brother, you don't have a fucking clue who I am lol.

Of course the people who called me nigger were wrong. But there's little difference between them and you calling other human beings creatures. The distinction you draw is as arbitrary as they come.

And let's review reality for a moment. You invited me here and then attacked me. I pwnd you and we were done with it. Then I posted a thought and you respond with some cutsie contrarian BS and then accused me of dismissing you because you DARED to disagree? Let's be clear. You're the one who attacks dissenting views. So get off the SS Martyr at Who Gives a Fuck Station.

Has anyone asked me? You've been ramming it down my throat and bitching when I bite your fist.

I wanna intern sociopaths. Lrn2read.

You think I deny very real danger? I was in the army. What the fuck have you done?

I've said it before. I don't give a fuck if you disagree with me. Just don't be a penis and then cry foul when you're called on it. I gotta say, I've been light on you. You've said some foul and inexcusable shit to date. Perverted shit on par with 'fucking niggers' and 'greedy Jews'. If you had a clue, you'd feel shame. I've been patient, but yeah, I'm tired of you now. And yeah, "I pity your life," was harsh. But it was nicer than, "I find what you're saying revolting." At least I can sleep at night knowing that you're all talk.
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