Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
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21-04-2014, 03:27 AM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2014 03:43 AM by Banjo.)
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
Dee, forgive me but it seems you still hold to some Xian habbits. When you left god, you left the rest of us with Him. So to speak.

Have you ever heard of Erich Hartmann? He was a Luftwaffe fighter pilot during WWII of no small repute.

At the close of the war he was taken into custody by the Russians. For over 10 years they did all they could to debase him and strip him of humanity. He never gave in. Held his head high and stood up for the rights of his fellow prisoners.

After 10 long years of this, the communists caved and sent him home.

Human dignity exists. Regardless of what it is called.

At least in my opinion.

NOTE* Dee, if I have totally misread your meaning, please forgive me. My brain is not working at 100%. I don't trust my own thoughts at this time.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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21-04-2014, 03:48 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
Human dignity...

I have my own self-respect. What can religion offer me?

Made in the image of God implies dignity? But God by his actions attested in the Bible is evil.

Advantages offered by religion are nothing if religion is not true anyway. You can't cite "Religion X is good because it encourages people to be nice, therefore it is good to believe religion X." If religion X is false then no matter what good qualities it allegedly bestows upon the believer, there is no point in believing it.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-04-2014, 04:50 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
(20-04-2014 05:54 PM)Doubter Wrote:  Hello everyone. For my 1st post, I'd like to discuss a dubious theistic claim I heard a few days ago. According to the latter: in rejecting Abrahamic religions, one has nothing but arbitrary reasons for justifying human dignity, while these religions, because they hold we were created in the image of God, have the best justification.

What's your opinion on that assertion?

That I am no more significant than any other member of the animal kingdom. If you need validation from some inivisible force that you are worth something, I suggest a good (secular) psychologist who can help you learn to value yourself.

I posit this: If you cannot show me this deity in whose image I am created there is NO WAY for us to ever know if that is true.
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21-04-2014, 05:09 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
Dignity is a human ideal. I believe we can live up to our ideals, ethics and laws.

We are higher animals.

I find it disturbing that there is a distinct lack of respect for humanity. There is no need to declare us no better than animals simply because we die as they do. It smacks of immodesty. No cow ever thought All I know is that I cannot be sure. And we all know it.

I have known many dignified people. People I could admire and respect. Is this untrue of you?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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21-04-2014, 05:26 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
(21-04-2014 05:09 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Dignity is a human ideal. I believe we can live up to our ideals, ethics and laws.

We are higher animals.

I find it disturbing that there is a distinct lack of respect for humanity. There is no need to declare us no better than animals simply because we die as they do. It smacks of immodesty. No cow ever thought All I know is that I cannot be sure. And we all know it.

I have known many dignified people. People I could admire and respect. Is this untrue of you?

I find it very self centered to hold yourself or your species as "special" and then give a make believe reason as to why. Yes, we are a unique species. But we are not the only intelligent species, nor is our uniqueness any more special than any other species' unique nature. I won't make absolute statements as to what cows think because I'm not a cow. But it's nice that you seem capable of crawling inside their minds and "getting" them. Laugh out load

I don't think there is any heirarchy in the animal kingdom. We may be the dominent species on the planet, but you meat a cougar on a hiking path and you, too, can become something's lunch.

It has nothing to do with "dignity". I have value because I value myself. And I don't need to set myself apart in order to value myself, I can accpet the realities of where I fit in the natural world and still value myself!
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21-04-2014, 05:38 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
Nobody accused you of devaluing yourself.

Having been stalked by crocodiles and had close shaves with sharks, I am well aware I can be a meal.

I do know that I do not attribute complex thought to cows. Having worked on farms I think I can safely attest to that fact.

Is it false to claim, or rather, acknowledge, that human beings have, amongst all the animals, been to the lunar surface. Mastered under sea voyages. Vineculture. Flight and a great many other things. I do not think so.

If this places my species above the level of cattle, I am unafraid to admit it.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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21-04-2014, 06:05 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
(21-04-2014 05:38 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Nobody accused you of devaluing yourself.

Having been stalked by crocodiles and had close shaves with sharks, I am well aware I can be a meal.

I do know that I do not attribute complex thought to cows. Having worked on farms I think I can safely attest to that fact.

Is it false to claim, or rather, acknowledge, that human beings have, amongst all the animals, been to the lunar surface. Mastered under sea voyages. Vineculture. Flight and a great many other things. I do not think so.

If this places my species above the level of cattle, I am unafraid to admit it.

You seem to need a heirarchy of species to exist. Here's my explanation of uniqueness. Neither you nor I can breathe water. But amphibious fish can breathe in both water and on land, naturally, without means of articifial apparatus. Does that place them above us because they don't need special breathing gear, or are we superior because we can make special breathing gear?

My point is, the only ranking system that exists is in your head. I don't need you to tell me you value me because I value myself.

If humans are such a superior species, why are we working so hard to turn our planet into something on which we cannot live? If humans die out tomorrow, there would likely be little noticable difference. But if bees die out, we have fucked ourselves royally and taken many of the species on the planet with us. So does that mean bees are at the top of the heirarchy?
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21-04-2014, 06:22 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
Quote:Mat0816 wrote:
That I am no more significant than any other member of the animal kingdom. If you need validation from some inivisible force that you are worth something, I suggest a good (secular) psychologist who can help you learn to value yourself.
I posit this: If you cannot show me this deity in whose image I am created there is NO WAY for us to ever know if that is true.

You talk to me as if I bought the claim I presented.Big Grin I've already indicated that I find it dubious.
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21-04-2014, 06:26 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
I am not one for ranking systems.

Each animal has it's unique attributes. As far as I am able to understand, human beings have many attribites. Some good, some bad.

This particular species shows adaptive capabilities far in advance of any other. Using apparatus, we can move under water, through the air and I daresay, into space.

At present I am in Sydney Australia communicating with you in, the USA? Perhaps Britain.

This is amazing. No other animal has such capabilities. Can you deny this?

And if we were only on a level with cows, would we not be worthy of some consideration and respect? Cows are held sacred in India.

I daresay the nature of our present dialogue is unworthy of a cow.

If you like you can do as I did as a teenager and go and live freely in a rain forrest or other area of bush. Hunt, make fires and eat the fish you catch. It is great to get back to nature. When you are there perhaps look back on this international conversation that is far beyond the capabilities of a fish.

Are we wise? Anyone reading this dialogue must surely think not.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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21-04-2014, 06:33 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
(21-04-2014 06:22 AM)Doubter Wrote:  
Quote:Mat0816 wrote:
That I am no more significant than any other member of the animal kingdom. If you need validation from some inivisible force that you are worth something, I suggest a good (secular) psychologist who can help you learn to value yourself.
I posit this: If you cannot show me this deity in whose image I am created there is NO WAY for us to ever know if that is true.

You talk to me as if I bought the claim I presented.Big Grin I've already indicated that I find it dubious.

Sorry, I used "you" in a general sense. Didn't mean to indict you personally. Apologies.
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