Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
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21-04-2014, 06:45 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
(21-04-2014 06:26 AM)Banjo Wrote:  I am not one for ranking systems.

Each animal has it's unique attributes. As far as I am able to understand, human beings have many attribites. Some good, some bad.

This particular species shows adaptive capabilities far in advance of any other. Using apparatus, we can move under water, through the air and I daresay, into space.

At present I am in Sydney Australia communicating with you in, the USA? Perhaps Britain.

This is amazing. No other animal has such capabilities. Can you deny this?

And if we were only on a level with cows, would we not be worthy of some consideration and respect? Cows are held sacred in India.

I daresay the nature of our present dialogue is unworthy of a cow.

If you like you can do as I did as a teenager and go and live freely in a rain forrest or other area of bush. Hunt, make fires and eat the fish you catch. It is great to get back to nature. When you are there perhaps look back on this international conversation that is far beyond the capabilities of a fish.

Are we wise? Anyone reading this dialogue must surely think not.

This:
Quote:I am not one for ranking systems.
conflicts with this:
Quote:I daresay the nature of our present dialogue is unworthy of a cow.

I am in the US.

You keep making value statements like this one:
Quote:I daresay the nature of our present dialogue is unworthy of a cow.
and then demanding I agree with you by asking me to deny what, in this instance, is worthy of a cow. Why would I do that if I have no need to place myself superior to a cow? Are we in competition for planetary dominance with cows? If cows could build breathing appartus would that make us inferior to them? When you rank things by worth (your word) you are setting up a heirarchy. I reject the heirarchy.

I am much too soft around the edges for the sort of camping you engage in. I'm 47, and the trauma I have visited upon my back over the years has left me incapable of doing some things comfortably. Does that make me inferior to the cow? Laugh out load

I disagree with the unilateral statement that no one reading this would think us (I'm assuming you mean you and me, if that's wrong do correct) primarily because the only person I can speak for is myelf. Big Grin But also, I think it's a pretty interesting conversation. That someone else might find it uninteresting, or even stupid, doesn't necessarily make it so. Plus, we're disagreeing pleasantly, and that's something that doesn't happen much in today's world. Laugh out load
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21-04-2014, 06:54 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
Mate we are not in the arena. My brain is starved of oxygen and I think what you are saying is moronic. What I am saying by even taking part is equally moronic.

I am half dead. What is your excuse?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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21-04-2014, 07:00 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
(20-04-2014 05:54 PM)Doubter Wrote:  Hello everyone. For my 1st post, I'd like to discuss a dubious theistic claim I heard a few days ago. According to the latter: in rejecting Abrahamic religions, one has nothing but arbitrary reasons for justifying human dignity, while these religions, because they hold we were created in the image of God, have the best justification.

What's your opinion on that assertion?

Empathy. Also, there are plenty of secular reasons to be nice to other people, if you're going to insist on a less feelings-based answer.

I also don't see how the Abrahamic religions justify human dignity. They largely give a bunch of rules to follow, some of which line up with dignity (don't lie, don't murder, don't steal), but they also portray countless genocides, endorse slavery, and the Abrahamic god can't once be troubled to say "thou shalt not rape" without adding qualifiers to see if the woman is a virgin or betrothed. These aren't really religions that scream "dignity" to me, but rather "control".

Lastly, I would say the Abrahamic religions are also going to attempt to justify human dignity in completely different and arbitrary ways. Go ask any number of adherents of these three religions, and then of the various sects how the religion enforces dignity, and you'll get entirely different answers. Lumping all these beliefs into single religions is handy for labeling purposes, but is about as effective at predicting someone's ethical beliefs as it is to ask them what toppings they like on their pizza.
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21-04-2014, 07:10 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
(21-04-2014 05:26 AM)Mat0816 Wrote:  I don't think there is any heirarchy in the animal kingdom. We may be the dominent species on the planet, but you meat a cougar on a hiking path and you, too, can become something's lunch.

It has nothing to do with "dignity". I have value because I value myself. And I don't need to set myself apart in order to value myself, I can accpet the realities of where I fit in the natural world and still value myself!

meat Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-04-2014, 08:29 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
I guess the way I see it (and this is just my lowly, un-intellectual opinion)

Is that life is -amazing- and should be treated with respect, not just for people but for all life.

Dignity and respect for the world that has "brought" us here just because its all we got, and we are all in this together. Who needs religion to see that?

*shrug*
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21-04-2014, 08:36 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
God doesn't exist. Therefore, human dignity has nothing to do with a god and still exists without one.
As for the requirement that we look like God in order to have human dignity, last I checked in the mirror, I don't look like a burning bush. Drinking Beverage

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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21-04-2014, 08:44 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
If there is a god and he looks like me, that bastard is in trouble. Gasp

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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21-04-2014, 10:39 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
(21-04-2014 06:54 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Mate we are not in the arena. My brain is starved of oxygen and I think what you are saying is moronic. What I am saying by even taking part is equally moronic.

I am half dead. What is your excuse?

I really don't know what you are after from me. Here I thought we were having a pleasant conversation between two people with differing opinions.

If you need to dismiss my comments as moronic, go for it. But don't expect me to agree that since you feel yourself to be incapacitated that I am thus equally so.
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21-04-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
(21-04-2014 07:10 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-04-2014 05:26 AM)Mat0816 Wrote:  I don't think there is any heirarchy in the animal kingdom. We may be the dominent species on the planet, but you meat a cougar on a hiking path and you, too, can become something's lunch.

It has nothing to do with "dignity". I have value because I value myself. And I don't need to set myself apart in order to value myself, I can accpet the realities of where I fit in the natural world and still value myself!

meat Facepalm


Freudian slip?
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21-04-2014, 11:28 AM
RE: Human dignity: a problem for atheists?
This subject has already been so well described from so many different perspectives, that there is nothing useful I can add. It's been interesting to read the exchange between Banjo and Mat0816, because there were grounds for understanding, but the circumstances haven't seemed to be those appropriate.

I think I know what Banjo was saying with respect to the differences between mental capabilities of ungulates and human beings, but I also think I understand Mat0816's point on how that does not necessarily mean we are better at living than other living beings. It may be that one million years from now there will be no living things that are our descendants, if humanity manages to kill itself for the glory of its own invented abstractions. It may be that being able to extract oxygen from a watery solution is more useful, on the long run, than being able to calculate the square root of two with a relatively high degree of precision.

However, our ability to understand abstract notions, and especially our ability to make them up, enable us to forecast what the future of this planet will be in the long run, and it doesn't look good. Even if nothing large slams into it as it orbits around its nearby star, once the concentration of hydrogen inside the star falls below a threshold, things on this planet will start to get very hot; I don't think amphibians will be able to survive when the sun becomes a red giant.

If we manage to build a humanity that does not kill itself for the glory of its own invented abstractions, humanity may be the thing that takes amphibians (and other things) to a different place where they may go on living before this planet becomes unlivable.

Whether that is good or bad depends on the perspective of who considers it. Maybe the things that may already live out there will see our expansion as detrimental if we don't shake off our obsession with placing flags on whatever lump of matter we may bump into.

Regarding the expression "human dignity", I too find it meaningless.

Thanks, Doubter and all, for an interesting thread.
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