Human ignorance and its effects
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14-02-2015, 02:19 AM
RE: Human ignorance and its effects
Every time I have to remove my shoes at the airport I angrily think about the monumental ignorance that has propagated global terrorism and its enormously wasteful consequences.
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14-02-2015, 05:16 AM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2015 05:25 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Human ignorance and its effects
(03-02-2015 08:34 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  This is related to the post Tomasia started on morality that has devolved into him avoiding and dodging any question or point posed to him under the guise of "that's not what this thread is about."

This thread is about anything and everything related to how human ignorance and incorrect beliefs/assumptions/ideas have shaped society, for better or for worse.

What are some of these ignorances? What assumptions and/or beliefs, that were incorrect or erroneous, have shaped society for the better? For the worse?

I'll start with an obvious one, religious "morality." Notions of morality have been with human society for quite some time, likely derived from altruistic behaviors. But religious commandments, guides, and laws governing morality do not actually make a person moral, because the religious follower of these guidelines is following them under the assumption that they are innately moral actions dictated by a moral being. This makes the religious actor amoral, not moral. This is in line with the idea that a good man, left to his own devices, will do good things. A bad man will do bad things. But if you want a good man to do bad things, you should give him religion.

Notions of divined or dictated morality are not exclusive to religion though, but it is interesting that it shares similarities with other instances of clearly immoral actions assumed to be moral because of who they are coming from (like genocide because it comes from your fuhrer).

Religious moral codes have led to burning people at the stake for being of a different religion or sexual persuasion, slavery and the defense of its practice through the bible's message of condoning it, people killing their kids in anticipation of the apocalypse, etc.

Well, since this is your thread, I'll respond more openly.

I think what you might not realize, is that you perceive the religious role in our moral shaping, as conveying a series of arbitrary commands, but you seem to miss that way religions shape our ordering of virtues, and vices, and give our moral perceptions a great degree of asthetic and binding dimensions.

Nietzsche in his criticism of Christianity, highlights this ordering, considering it a reversal of values, a slave-morality, rather than a master morality. Christianity brought into the western imagination, a morality which places the weak, the poor, disenfranchised on top, rather than the interest of the aristrocats, and convinced the western world of its universality. Humanism, enlightenment era moral sentiments all spring from this imagination, a sickness according to Nietzeche, brought along by the arrival of Christianity, overturning the beloved pagan values systems.

But where in Christianity these values are fixed in some grand moral narrative, in our world devoid of any lingering scent of divinity they are not. We now have the freedom to order our values the way we like.


Quote:Unlike master morality which is sentiment, slave morality is literally re-sentiment—revaluing that which the master values. This strays from the valuation of actions based on consequences to the valuation of actions based on "intention".[4] As master morality originates in the strong, slave morality originates in the weak. Because slave morality is a reaction to oppression, it villainizes its oppressors. Slave morality is the inverse of master morality. As such, it is characterized by pessimism and cynicism. Slave morality is created in opposition to what master morality values as 'good'. Slave morality does not aim at exerting one's will by strength but by careful subversion. It does not seek to transcend the masters, but to make them slaves as well. The essence of slave morality is utility:[5] the good is what is most useful for the whole community, not the strong. Nietzsche saw this as a contradiction. Since the powerful are few in number compared to the masses of the weak, the weak gain power by corrupting the strong into believing that the causes of slavery (viz., the will to power) are 'evil', as are the qualities they originally could not choose because of their weakness. By saying humility is voluntary, slave morality avoids admitting that their humility was in the beginning forced upon them by a master. Biblical principles of turning the other cheek, humility, charity, and pity are the result of universalizing the plight of the slave onto all humankind, and thus enslaving the masters as well. "The democratic movement is the heir to Christianity."[6]—the political manifestation of slave morality because of its obsession with freedom and equality.

"...the Jews achieved that miracle of inversion of values thanks to which life on earth has for a couple millennia acquired a new and dangerous fascination--their prophets fused 'rich', 'godless', 'evil', 'violent', 'sensual' into one and were the first to coin the word 'world' as a term of infamy. It is this inversion of values (with which is involved the employment of the word for 'poor' as a synonym for 'holy' and 'friend') that the significance of the Jewish people resides: with them there begins the slave revolt in morals."[7] -Wikipedia
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14-02-2015, 07:31 AM
Human ignorance and its effects
(14-02-2015 05:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-02-2015 08:34 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  This is related to the post Tomasia started on morality that has devolved into him avoiding and dodging any question or point posed to him under the guise of "that's not what this thread is about."

This thread is about anything and everything related to how human ignorance and incorrect beliefs/assumptions/ideas have shaped society, for better or for worse.

What are some of these ignorances? What assumptions and/or beliefs, that were incorrect or erroneous, have shaped society for the better? For the worse?

I'll start with an obvious one, religious "morality." Notions of morality have been with human society for quite some time, likely derived from altruistic behaviors. But religious commandments, guides, and laws governing morality do not actually make a person moral, because the religious follower of these guidelines is following them under the assumption that they are innately moral actions dictated by a moral being. This makes the religious actor amoral, not moral. This is in line with the idea that a good man, left to his own devices, will do good things. A bad man will do bad things. But if you want a good man to do bad things, you should give him religion.

Notions of divined or dictated morality are not exclusive to religion though, but it is interesting that it shares similarities with other instances of clearly immoral actions assumed to be moral because of who they are coming from (like genocide because it comes from your fuhrer).

Religious moral codes have led to burning people at the stake for being of a different religion or sexual persuasion, slavery and the defense of its practice through the bible's message of condoning it, people killing their kids in anticipation of the apocalypse, etc.

Well, since this is your thread, I'll respond more openly.

I think what you might not realize, is that you perceive the religious role in our moral shaping, as conveying a series of arbitrary commands, but you seem to miss that way religions shape our ordering of virtues, and vices, and give our moral perceptions a great degree of asthetic and binding dimensions.

Nietzsche in his criticism of Christianity, highlights this ordering, considering it a reversal of values, a slave-morality, rather than a master morality. Christianity brought into the western imagination, a morality which places the weak, the poor, disenfranchised on top, rather than the interest of the aristrocats, and convinced the western world of its universality. Humanism, enlightenment era moral sentiments all spring from this imagination, a sickness according to Nietzeche, brought along by the arrival of Christianity, overturning the beloved pagan values systems.

But where in Christianity these values are fixed in some grand moral narrative, in our world devoid of any lingering scent of divinity they are not. We now have the freedom to order our values the way we like.


Quote:Unlike master morality which is sentiment, slave morality is literally re-sentiment—revaluing that which the master values. This strays from the valuation of actions based on consequences to the valuation of actions based on "intention".[4] As master morality originates in the strong, slave morality originates in the weak. Because slave morality is a reaction to oppression, it villainizes its oppressors. Slave morality is the inverse of master morality. As such, it is characterized by pessimism and cynicism. Slave morality is created in opposition to what master morality values as 'good'. Slave morality does not aim at exerting one's will by strength but by careful subversion. It does not seek to transcend the masters, but to make them slaves as well. The essence of slave morality is utility:[5] the good is what is most useful for the whole community, not the strong. Nietzsche saw this as a contradiction. Since the powerful are few in number compared to the masses of the weak, the weak gain power by corrupting the strong into believing that the causes of slavery (viz., the will to power) are 'evil', as are the qualities they originally could not choose because of their weakness. By saying humility is voluntary, slave morality avoids admitting that their humility was in the beginning forced upon them by a master. Biblical principles of turning the other cheek, humility, charity, and pity are the result of universalizing the plight of the slave onto all humankind, and thus enslaving the masters as well. "The democratic movement is the heir to Christianity."[6]—the political manifestation of slave morality because of its obsession with freedom and equality.

"...the Jews achieved that miracle of inversion of values thanks to which life on earth has for a couple millennia acquired a new and dangerous fascination--their prophets fused 'rich', 'godless', 'evil', 'violent', 'sensual' into one and were the first to coin the word 'world' as a term of infamy. It is this inversion of values (with which is involved the employment of the word for 'poor' as a synonym for 'holy' and 'friend') that the significance of the Jewish people resides: with them there begins the slave revolt in morals."[7] -Wikipedia

There is no morality in religion, there is only commandment to do what someone else believes is moral. Making following those codes an amoral action. Just because you've decided to respond to this thread instead of the other, doesn't mean you can ignore these points.

Christianity places slaves beneath their master. It is the epitome of the master-slave relationship where the slave (the religious) gives all to their master (God). You've completely mischaracterized Christianity if you think it places all humans on equal footing (it doesn't think very highly of those who are not Christian for instance).

What is this "grand moral narrative"?

Are you ever going to tell me how you know this eternal moral code exists?

And I'd still like my other questions and points from the other thread addressed.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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14-02-2015, 07:32 AM
Human ignorance and its effects
And (as you've tried to do on your other thread), you've not addressed the OP at all.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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