Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
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02-08-2014, 02:59 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(02-08-2014 02:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(02-08-2014 02:24 PM)morondog Wrote:  In your opinion Rolleyes What's with you guys? You're all so goddamn convinced that repeating stuff will magically make others agree with you.

I think there is a fundamental disconnect here. There are 2 competing philosophies on Penal Justice one is based around rehabilitation and solving the base problems that cause crime, the other is based around vengeance for for the victim. They are incompatible because the rehabilitation route is seen as "soft" and "not punishing the criminal" by the vengeance crowd and the vengeance route is seen as "inefficient" and "inhumane" by the rehabilitation crowd. There are more facts on the rehab side more feels on the vengeance side and very little middle ground because they are diametrically opposed.

So basically do you want to fix the actual problem or do you want an eye for an eye because you cannot have both.

Indeed. It depends, then, on one's conception of a legal system - its goals, and its methods. Either method will be morally/emotionally satisfying to some and unsatisfying/repugnant to others.

I feel that it is wrong to rescind the human rights of criminals. That's an emotional response. I wouldn't try to convince someone of that, though I have no problem stating it. What I can argue is that rehabilitative justice leads to lower rates of recidivism - the existing body of evidence demonstrates this unambiguously. If, then, the goal of a justice system is to reduce crime...

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02-08-2014, 03:06 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(02-08-2014 02:59 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(02-08-2014 02:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I think there is a fundamental disconnect here. There are 2 competing philosophies on Penal Justice one is based around rehabilitation and solving the base problems that cause crime, the other is based around vengeance for for the victim. They are incompatible because the rehabilitation route is seen as "soft" and "not punishing the criminal" by the vengeance crowd and the vengeance route is seen as "inefficient" and "inhumane" by the rehabilitation crowd. There are more facts on the rehab side more feels on the vengeance side and very little middle ground because they are diametrically opposed.

So basically do you want to fix the actual problem or do you want an eye for an eye because you cannot have both.

Indeed. It depends, then, on one's conception of a legal system - its goals, and its methods. Either method will be morally/emotionally satisfying to some and unsatisfying/repugnant to others.

I feel that it is wrong to rescind the human rights of criminals. That's an emotional response. I wouldn't try to convince someone of that, though I have no problem stating it. What I can argue is that rehabilitative justice leads to lower rates of recidivism - the existing body of evidence demonstrates this unambiguously. If, then, the goal of a justice system is to reduce crime...

Well I think both sides want a safer society but one side has much more supporting data than the other.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-08-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(02-08-2014 02:59 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I wouldn't try to convince someone of that

I would.

Let's take a murderer. Let's make him horrible. He's a really nasty guy. He killed a bunch of people in really twisted ways. Now he's been sent to jail.

So he's now gonna be confined to a jail where people will do nasty things to him until the only thing he wants is to die. But he won't be allowed to die. He will be kept alive and tortured.

1. The victims, the victims' families - no one is helped by this senseless shit. Even if say some victim's relatives are vengefully happy - would their loved one have wanted them to be twisted like this, is this any way to remember them?
2. It makes it hard to see what's so bloody immoral about the guy killing people in the first place - what makes *us* so much better than him, that we can condemn a person to this kind of torture?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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02-08-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(02-08-2014 03:06 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(02-08-2014 02:59 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Indeed. It depends, then, on one's conception of a legal system - its goals, and its methods. Either method will be morally/emotionally satisfying to some and unsatisfying/repugnant to others.

I feel that it is wrong to rescind the human rights of criminals. That's an emotional response. I wouldn't try to convince someone of that, though I have no problem stating it. What I can argue is that rehabilitative justice leads to lower rates of recidivism - the existing body of evidence demonstrates this unambiguously. If, then, the goal of a justice system is to reduce crime...

Well I think both sides want a safer society but one side has much more supporting data than the other.

I think everyone knows that they need to appeal to safety in their rhetoric, but if they're actually following the data...

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02-08-2014, 03:17 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(02-08-2014 03:14 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(02-08-2014 03:06 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well I think both sides want a safer society but one side has much more supporting data than the other.

I think everyone knows that they need to appeal to safety in their rhetoric, but if they're actually following the data...

That would imply rationality at the base of motivation. Sadly that is often not the case.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-08-2014, 03:18 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(02-08-2014 02:59 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(02-08-2014 02:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I think there is a fundamental disconnect here. There are 2 competing philosophies on Penal Justice one is based around rehabilitation and solving the base problems that cause crime, the other is based around vengeance for for the victim. They are incompatible because the rehabilitation route is seen as "soft" and "not punishing the criminal" by the vengeance crowd and the vengeance route is seen as "inefficient" and "inhumane" by the rehabilitation crowd. There are more facts on the rehab side more feels on the vengeance side and very little middle ground because they are diametrically opposed.

So basically do you want to fix the actual problem or do you want an eye for an eye because you cannot have both.

Indeed. It depends, then, on one's conception of a legal system - its goals, and its methods. Either method will be morally/emotionally satisfying to some and unsatisfying/repugnant to others.

I feel that it is wrong to rescind the human rights of criminals. That's an emotional response. I wouldn't try to convince someone of that, though I have no problem stating it. What I can argue is that rehabilitative justice leads to lower rates of recidivism - the existing body of evidence demonstrates this unambiguously. If, then, the goal of a justice system is to reduce crime...

Yes, rehabilitative justice will lower recidivism rates; execution zeroes them. Big Grin

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02-08-2014, 03:18 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(02-08-2014 03:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-08-2014 02:59 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Indeed. It depends, then, on one's conception of a legal system - its goals, and its methods. Either method will be morally/emotionally satisfying to some and unsatisfying/repugnant to others.

I feel that it is wrong to rescind the human rights of criminals. That's an emotional response. I wouldn't try to convince someone of that, though I have no problem stating it. What I can argue is that rehabilitative justice leads to lower rates of recidivism - the existing body of evidence demonstrates this unambiguously. If, then, the goal of a justice system is to reduce crime...

Yes, rehabilitative justice will lower recidivism rates; execution zeroes them. Big Grin

Yes, if applied to every crime.

I mean, that's one way to go.

Big Grin

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02-08-2014, 03:19 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(02-08-2014 03:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-08-2014 02:59 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Indeed. It depends, then, on one's conception of a legal system - its goals, and its methods. Either method will be morally/emotionally satisfying to some and unsatisfying/repugnant to others.

I feel that it is wrong to rescind the human rights of criminals. That's an emotional response. I wouldn't try to convince someone of that, though I have no problem stating it. What I can argue is that rehabilitative justice leads to lower rates of recidivism - the existing body of evidence demonstrates this unambiguously. If, then, the goal of a justice system is to reduce crime...

Yes, rehabilitative justice will lower recidivism rates; execution zeroes them. Big Grin

So the islamic world has a 0 crime rate? Oh wait...

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-08-2014, 03:21 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(02-08-2014 03:19 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(02-08-2014 03:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, rehabilitative justice will lower recidivism rates; execution zeroes them. Big Grin

So the islamic world has a 0 crime rate? Oh wait...

0 recidivism though.

I don't like execution 'cos... too easy to be politically motivated and it's not like you can appeal...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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02-08-2014, 03:22 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(02-08-2014 03:14 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(02-08-2014 03:06 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well I think both sides want a safer society but one side has much more supporting data than the other.

I think everyone knows that they need to appeal to safety in their rhetoric, but if they're actually following the data...

Of course we need a rehabilitative penal system. It is humane and it works.

However, there are people for whom no amount of rehabilitation will be successful. They are broken people, inherently so or made so by others. What next? Consider

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