Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-05-2014, 06:48 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 06:05 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I guess my odd ball point is there will always be people who actually deserve the death penalty. What I'd like to see, instead of being applied as often as it is in some states, i would feel better if it was reserved for the jackasses that truly do deserve to die. Like Oklahoma City dude...

People who terrorize a large swath of people maybe....

How in the world could one possibly quantify, much less administer, such a standard?

That's such an inherently subjective personal judgement, I don't think it would ever be workable - it'd just magnify all the issues with present capital punishment.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2014, 06:53 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 06:48 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 04:54 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The anti-death penalty stance is one of the hardest ones to take. Almost always (and I am amazed it has not been done here) someone will bring up some kind of horror story usually involving children and ask whether this person deserves to live. The problem is not that there are not people who do deserve death but in how that is applied, which all data shows is invariably biased against poor and minority defendants. In the US if you are poor and Black and convicted of murder you are 75% more likely to receive a Death Sentence than if you were White.

Then there is also the problem with wrongful conviction. In recent years several men on Death Row have had their verdicts overturned due to new evidence, some however came to late and we as a society are complicit in their Murder by the State.

Lastly there is the cost, and this is mind boggling. It costs more to execute 1 prisoner than it does to incarcerate 20 prisoners for life. This is a burden to the taxpayer for a system that has never prevented a single death. The murder rate in area's with the Death Penalty is the same or higher than in areas without.

Gasp how can that even be possible?? You got the run down on those numbers? It'd be interesting to see where all the expense in an execution comes from, and compare it to the cost of keeping them alive Consider

I've waffled on this issue my whole life, and still can't make up my mind. I feel very strongly about each side of the argument for some reason.

One thing tipping me toward the death penalty was I figured it HAD to be more expensive to pay for the food, prison space, and guards to cover an entire lifetime. Yeah, I know each one doesn't get their own prison with guards, but how much does it rack up when you add them all together... If that makes sense? More people means more prison space and more guards needed is what I'm getting at.

If that's not the case... I've got some more thinking on the subject to do.

I have seen these numbers in several places but here is a good all in one. It is an anti death penalty site so feel free to fact check any of their claims.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

Quote:Maryland

Study Reveals Costs in Maryland: $186 Million for Five Executions

A study released by the Urban Institute on March 6, 2008 forecast that the lifetime cost to taxpayers for the capitally-prosecuted cases in Maryland since 1978 will be $186 million. That translates to $37.2 million for each of the state’s five executions since the state reenacted the death penalty. The study estimates that the average cost to Maryland taxpayers for reaching a single death sentence is $3 million - $1.9 million more than the cost of a non-death penalty case. (This includes investigation, trial, appeals, and incarceration costs.) The study examined 162 capital cases that were prosecuted between 1978 and 1999 and found that those cases will cost $186 million more than what those cases would have cost had the death penalty not existed as a punishment. At every phase of a case, according to the study, capital murder cases cost more than non-capital murder cases.

Of the 162 capital cases, there were 106 cases in which a death sentence was sought but not handed down in Maryland. Those cases cost the state an additional $71 million compared to the cost non-death penalty cases. Those costs were incurred simply to seek the death penalty where the ultimate outcome was a life or long-term prison sentence.

(J. McMenamin, “Death penalty costs Md. more than life term,” Baltimore Sun, March 6, 2008).

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/CostsDPMaryland.pdf

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2014, 06:57 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 06:53 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I have seen these numbers in several places but here is a good all in one. It is an anti death penalty site so feel free to fact check any of their claims.

Eh, seems legit. It's the lengthy legal process that racks up the charges; the exact figures vary, but I've never seen anyone who's ever been anywhere near real data attempt to claim otherwise.

Since it's not cheaper, and it's not a deterrent, the defense boils down to "some people deserve it"; I don't think that's justifiable in the face of known wrongful convictions, but some people do.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like cjlr's post
28-05-2014, 07:02 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 06:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 06:53 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I have seen these numbers in several places but here is a good all in one. It is an anti death penalty site so feel free to fact check any of their claims.

Eh, seems legit. It's the lengthy legal process that racks up the charges; the exact figures vary, but I've never seen anyone who's ever been anywhere near real data attempt to claim otherwise.

Since it's not cheaper, and it's not a deterrent, the defense boils down to "some people deserve it"; I don't think that's justifiable in the face of known wrongful convictions, but some people do.

Yabbut it never hurts to do full disclosure when posting a source.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 07:02 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 06:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Eh, seems legit. It's the lengthy legal process that racks up the charges; the exact figures vary, but I've never seen anyone who's ever been anywhere near real data attempt to claim otherwise.

Since it's not cheaper, and it's not a deterrent, the defense boils down to "some people deserve it"; I don't think that's justifiable in the face of known wrongful convictions, but some people do.

Yabbut it never hurts to do full disclosure when posting a source.

True say. Though the referenced studies seem plenty legit. S'just comparing which numbers are bigger.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 06:48 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 06:05 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I guess my odd ball point is there will always be people who actually deserve the death penalty. What I'd like to see, instead of being applied as often as it is in some states, i would feel better if it was reserved for the jackasses that truly do deserve to die. Like Oklahoma City dude...

People who terrorize a large swath of people maybe....

How in the world could one possibly quantify, much less administer, such a standard?

That's such an inherently subjective personal judgement, I don't think it would ever be workable - it'd just magnify all the issues with present capital punishment.

Oh no, I don't think so. People who commit mass murder, are guilty of commiting a crime against humanity. I think those few are a waste of oxygen. I don't think they should be kept alive. I think there were a few serial killers that deserve the death penalty too.

I think the people who carried out the 9-11 attacks were mass murderers and if they hadn't died on the planes...

I agree most people on death row probably don't deserve to be there. I have no problem with them receiving life in prison.

But there are some who go above and beyond and I think the death penalty should remain as a option for those scant few.

The sun rises in the West and the bird shits on the coffeetable.


Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Momsurroundedbyboys's post
28-05-2014, 07:07 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 07:05 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 07:02 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Yabbut it never hurts to do full disclosure when posting a source.

True say. Though the referenced studies seem plenty legit. S'just comparing which numbers are bigger.

Yes, and it is best not to lie when the facts are on your side anyway. So far all the numbers seem to check out.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 06:48 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 04:54 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The anti-death penalty stance is one of the hardest ones to take. Almost always (and I am amazed it has not been done here) someone will bring up some kind of horror story usually involving children and ask whether this person deserves to live. The problem is not that there are not people who do deserve death but in how that is applied, which all data shows is invariably biased against poor and minority defendants. In the US if you are poor and Black and convicted of murder you are 75% more likely to receive a Death Sentence than if you were White.

Then there is also the problem with wrongful conviction. In recent years several men on Death Row have had their verdicts overturned due to new evidence, some however came to late and we as a society are complicit in their Murder by the State.

Lastly there is the cost, and this is mind boggling. It costs more to execute 1 prisoner than it does to incarcerate 20 prisoners for life. This is a burden to the taxpayer for a system that has never prevented a single death. The murder rate in area's with the Death Penalty is the same or higher than in areas without.

Gasp how can that even be possible?? You got the run down on those numbers? It'd be interesting to see where all the expense in an execution comes from, and compare it to the cost of keeping them alive Consider

I've waffled on this issue my whole life, and still can't make up my mind. I feel very strongly about each side of the argument for some reason.

One thing tipping me toward the death penalty was I figured it HAD to be more expensive to pay for the food, prison space, and guards to cover an entire lifetime. Yeah, I know each one doesn't get their own prison with guards, but how much does it rack up when you add them all together... If that makes sense? More people means more prison space and more guards needed is what I'm getting at.

If that's not the case... I've got some more thinking on the subject to do.

It's the automatic appeals -- it falls on the taxpayers dime. It's not cheap -- and not any lawyer will take those cases too.

Food/clothing/shelter are nothing compared to the legal costs and special housing costs for death row inmates (they're usually kept out of the general prison population). Then there's healthcare if they get sick...

Lots of money tied into keeping them alive so they can die.

The sun rises in the West and the bird shits on the coffeetable.


Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 06:53 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 06:48 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  Gasp how can that even be possible?? You got the run down on those numbers? It'd be interesting to see where all the expense in an execution comes from, and compare it to the cost of keeping them alive Consider

I've waffled on this issue my whole life, and still can't make up my mind. I feel very strongly about each side of the argument for some reason.

One thing tipping me toward the death penalty was I figured it HAD to be more expensive to pay for the food, prison space, and guards to cover an entire lifetime. Yeah, I know each one doesn't get their own prison with guards, but how much does it rack up when you add them all together... If that makes sense? More people means more prison space and more guards needed is what I'm getting at.

If that's not the case... I've got some more thinking on the subject to do.

I have seen these numbers in several places but here is a good all in one. It is an anti death penalty site so feel free to fact check any of their claims.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

Quote:Maryland

Study Reveals Costs in Maryland: $186 Million for Five Executions

A study released by the Urban Institute on March 6, 2008 forecast that the lifetime cost to taxpayers for the capitally-prosecuted cases in Maryland since 1978 will be $186 million. That translates to $37.2 million for each of the state’s five executions since the state reenacted the death penalty. The study estimates that the average cost to Maryland taxpayers for reaching a single death sentence is $3 million - $1.9 million more than the cost of a non-death penalty case. (This includes investigation, trial, appeals, and incarceration costs.) The study examined 162 capital cases that were prosecuted between 1978 and 1999 and found that those cases will cost $186 million more than what those cases would have cost had the death penalty not existed as a punishment. At every phase of a case, according to the study, capital murder cases cost more than non-capital murder cases.

Of the 162 capital cases, there were 106 cases in which a death sentence was sought but not handed down in Maryland. Those cases cost the state an additional $71 million compared to the cost non-death penalty cases. Those costs were incurred simply to seek the death penalty where the ultimate outcome was a life or long-term prison sentence.

(J. McMenamin, “Death penalty costs Md. more than life term,” Baltimore Sun, March 6, 2008).

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/CostsDPMaryland.pdf

Thanks for the links, Rev.

Looks like it was mostly talking about court costs, and it makes sense. If the death penalty is on the table, you're liable to fight the charges harder. Is a lot of that cost at on the tax payer?

As for prison costs alone, I did some number crunching. Approx $49k/yr on death row, $26k/yr regular population. Says the average time spent on death row is a little over 10 years (Zeus' beard, why so long?? Appeals?), and average convicted age is 28.

You figure if he could serve out a life sentence, and die at say 80, cost of living in general population is approx $2.1 million. Death row would be $490k.

Not fighting for the death penalty, just thinking out loud. And I'm a lil sleepy, if my numbers are off, or of my source is a shitty one, feel free to smack me around lol

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/time-death-row

"Good men are forged in fire. It is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame" - War Doctor
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2014, 07:14 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 07:10 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 06:48 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  Gasp how can that even be possible?? You got the run down on those numbers? It'd be interesting to see where all the expense in an execution comes from, and compare it to the cost of keeping them alive Consider

I've waffled on this issue my whole life, and still can't make up my mind. I feel very strongly about each side of the argument for some reason.

One thing tipping me toward the death penalty was I figured it HAD to be more expensive to pay for the food, prison space, and guards to cover an entire lifetime. Yeah, I know each one doesn't get their own prison with guards, but how much does it rack up when you add them all together... If that makes sense? More people means more prison space and more guards needed is what I'm getting at.

If that's not the case... I've got some more thinking on the subject to do.

It's the automatic appeals -- it falls on the taxpayers dime. It's not cheap -- and not any lawyer will take those cases too.

Food/clothing/shelter are nothing compared to the legal costs and special housing costs for death row inmates (they're usually kept out of the general prison population). Then there's healthcare if they get sick...

Lots of money tied into keeping them alive so they can die.

Ok, didn't know that court cost for appeals go to the tax payers. Yeesh No

"Good men are forged in fire. It is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame" - War Doctor
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: