Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
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28-05-2014, 07:53 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 07:50 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  My argument is that execution could be seen as more humane, in some instances, than imprisonement, depending on the environment you're sending the accused into. So...

... we should improve prison conditions?

I mean, that "cruel and unusual punishment" bit still stands, no?

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28-05-2014, 07:56 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 07:43 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 07:41 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  No emotion, dude.

I would appeal to the real humanist that it is worth the added cost of execution to end the unessecary suffering of a human being, even one as seemingly undeserving as Jeffrey Dahmer, to alleviate humanity's conscious over prolonging a life that is nearly certain to die violently, and painfully!

If the end result is going to be death, anyway, then those who would keep a serial killer alive long enough for him/her to experience a horrifying death should know just how complicit they are in allowing it to happen. Some of those people might want to examine their own feelings on why they would wish that on another human, even one as seemingly deserving as a Jeffrey Dahmer, as well. Vengeance much?

I could care less, of course. I was just sayin.

So your entire argument is nu-uh. Ok. I will counter this with what should you do every time it comes up that we have executed someone completely innocent? It has happened far more than the Pro Death side wants you to know.

Yes, I hate to say this, but all too often it comes down to how much justice can you afford.

That is most troubling.

I also have ethical issues with lethal injection. So, there's that.

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28-05-2014, 08:08 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 07:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 07:50 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  My argument is that execution could be seen as more humane, in some instances, than imprisonement, depending on the environment you're sending the accused into. So...

... we should improve prison conditions?

I mean, that "cruel and unusual punishment" bit still stands, no?

How do you improve it so that's still honestly considered punishment?

Prison conditions of today might be considered a luxury back in 1789 or whenever the 8th ammendment was ratified.

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28-05-2014, 08:11 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 08:08 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 07:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  ... we should improve prison conditions?

I mean, that "cruel and unusual punishment" bit still stands, no?

How do you improve it so that's still honestly considered punishment?

Prison conditions of today might be considered a luxury back in 1789 or whenever the 8th ammendment was ratified.

This is ranging far afield but studies show that Punitive measures are less successful at reducing recidivism rates than rehabilitation. The Norwegian penal system is by far the cushiest softest system in the world with heavy focus on rehabilitation. They are closing prisons due to lack of inmates.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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28-05-2014, 08:15 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 07:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 07:50 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  My argument is that execution could be seen as more humane, in some instances, than imprisonement, depending on the environment you're sending the accused into. So...

... we should improve prison conditions?

I mean, that "cruel and unusual punishment" bit still stands, no?

Once again, I could care less Tongue

But don't go thinking the (at least the U.S.'s) prison system is going to be hunky dory by the time an end to the death penalty comes about.

Am I wrong to assume that there has been some prisoners who were eligible for the death penalty that didn't make it to that humane execution before they were brutally murdered by their fellow inmates?
If so, no matter how rare the occurance, if I'm supposed to feel complicit in an innocent's death for advocating the death penalty, then I think people who speak out against the death penalty should realize that they are equally complicit in the horrifying death of someone who could've been executed humanely. (Particularly since I'd rather die than go into some of the prison's I've heard of)
And if the response to that realization is an "o.k. sure, but I don't care, cuz he/she deserved it" (not that I'm implying that anyone here has thus far made that response) then I don't want my stance to be seen as more barbaric than it's counterpoint. Since, in that instance (if it has in fact happened before), it's not.

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28-05-2014, 08:18 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 08:11 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This is ranging far afield but studies show that Punitive measures are less successful at reducing recidivism rates than rehabilitation. The Norwegian penal system is by far the cushiest softest system in the world with heavy focus on rehabilitation. They are closing prisons due to lack of inmates.

That's interesting. The correlation in Norway might not be causation all though. Norway has other factors that also correlate to low crime in respect to other countries like lower religious belief, lower income inequality and lower ethnic diversity. In my opinion, if the US wants to aim for the crime levels or Nordic countries it will have to aim towards those other markers as well.

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28-05-2014, 08:19 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 08:08 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 07:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  ... we should improve prison conditions?

I mean, that "cruel and unusual punishment" bit still stands, no?

How do you improve it so that's still honestly considered punishment?

Prison conditions of today might be considered a luxury back in 1789 or whenever the 8th ammendment was ratified.

You don't as such - and historical interpretations are irrelevant. Punishment at all needn't enter into consideration; I used the phrase, but it's an Americanism. There is no punitive component to the Canadian justice system.

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28-05-2014, 08:28 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(28-05-2014 08:18 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 08:11 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This is ranging far afield but studies show that Punitive measures are less successful at reducing recidivism rates than rehabilitation. The Norwegian penal system is by far the cushiest softest system in the world with heavy focus on rehabilitation. They are closing prisons due to lack of inmates.

That's interesting. The correlation in Norway might not be causation all though.

I think we can safely give more credit to such an established body of research. I don't think anyone is studying just America and Norway.

(28-05-2014 08:18 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Norway has other factors that also correlate to low crime in respect to other countries like lower religious belief, lower income inequality and lower ethnic diversity. In my opinion, if the US wants to aim for the crime levels or Nordic countries it will have to aim towards those other markers as well.

The USA is not a magical special snowflake among nations. What works elsewhere would work there.

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28-05-2014, 08:34 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
There are people who seem destined to commit violent crimes, but these people are few and far between. Nearly all people who go to prison in the United States are from the same demographics

1) Male
2) African American (or another minority)
3) Poor back ground

The problem here isn't that african american males from the inner city are inherently more violent or more dangerous, at least not in any kind of hereditary sense. The problem is a lack of education, a lack of opportunities, and real and perceived inequalities. There are many, many reasons why people go to prison but what is clear is that its where you grow up, not who you are. If you want to dramatically reduce crime in the long term, rehabilitation is not just the most humane answer, it is also objectively the best one. The debate should be focused on how best to do this.

In regards to the death penalty, Rev has done an excellent job bringing up all relevant points. When you look at the arguments, both philosophical, humane, and pragmatic, its pretty clear the death penalty needs to go.
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28-05-2014, 08:44 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
Quote:The anti-death penalty stance is one of the hardest ones to take.

No it's not. It's the easy argument to make...

Death penalty costs more, inmates are often left on death row for years, some end up with life imprisonment instead (making it all a waste of time) anyway, innocent people can be executed, the evidence is not there to prove it actually deters crime the moral crisis around executing mentally handicapped (which could be argued that anyone that goes around killing/raping people has something wrong with them in the brain.), eye for an eye is a bad philosophy, we have the means to keep them detained for life, the evidence behind the chemical they use and if it causes pain and suffering or not is not conclusive, botched executions, it's not widely accepted in the population, jury members of death penalty crimes are not aloud to be anti-death penalty (this may have changed), which defeats the whole purpose of a jury.

All pro-death penalty have is "revenge" which is a poor argument.

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