Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
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29-05-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(29-05-2014 06:56 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 04:46 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Yeah but two wrongs don't make a right.

Personally, I couldn't care less what happens to a person who's committed murder! I'm not the furthest thing from a proponent of the humane treatment of violent criminals you'll find, but close enough so as to make no difference. But I'm not masquerading as a Saint, either.

Sending someone into an environment where it is highly likely that they will be raped to death is less "wrong" than bringing about an end to their life in a painless fashion!

So when someone says they are against all forms of torture, no matter who what where when or how, yet will condemn a prisoner to a life time's worth of a fate far worse than death, I'm calling bullshit, and won't let it go until they admit they are at least just as "awful" as I am for proposing the humane execution of serial murderers, if not more so, for their willingness to send other humans into hellish conditions from which they might only be able to escape through a grizzly death!

Obviously, the death penalty should be reserved for those who've committed the most outrageous of heinous acts, but to get rid of it all together before FIRST fixing the penal system into which you're sending the damned is as ridiculous as getting rid of guns, and then lamenting that people are still killing each other with knives.

I'll accept the zero tolerance rule in allowing innocents to die, but I'll have to hold the same zero tolerance rule for those who are against torture. Torture that can only be circumvented by, as painlessly as possible, executing someone who's committed heinous acts before you throw them in the midst of fiends who would love nothing more than to tear them to bits with their bare hands!

I suppose this argument would work if I was not also in favor of legalising drug use and pardoning all currently convicted non-violent offenders who were sentenced under the current drug laws. That alone would remove 80% of the prison population and would make housing the remaining violent prisoners much easier. The only reason the prison system is as bad as it is now is because of overcrowding from those draconian and inane drug laws. Fixing that problem pulls the pressure relief for the entire system and allows us to focus on improving conditions and safety.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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29-05-2014, 07:19 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(29-05-2014 07:10 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 06:56 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Personally, I couldn't care less what happens to a person who's committed murder! I'm not the furthest thing from a proponent of the humane treatment of violent criminals you'll find, but close enough so as to make no difference. But I'm not masquerading as a Saint, either.

Sending someone into an environment where it is highly likely that they will be raped to death is less "wrong" than bringing about an end to their life in a painless fashion!

So when someone says they are against all forms of torture, no matter who what where when or how, yet will condemn a prisoner to a life time's worth of a fate far worse than death, I'm calling bullshit, and won't let it go until they admit they are at least just as "awful" as I am for proposing the humane execution of serial murderers, if not more so, for their willingness to send other humans into hellish conditions from which they might only be able to escape through a grizzly death!

Obviously, the death penalty should be reserved for those who've committed the most outrageous of heinous acts, but to get rid of it all together before FIRST fixing the penal system into which you're sending the damned is as ridiculous as getting rid of guns, and then lamenting that people are still killing each other with knives.

I'll accept the zero tolerance rule in allowing innocents to die, but I'll have to hold the same zero tolerance rule for those who are against torture. Torture that can only be circumvented by, as painlessly as possible, executing someone who's committed heinous acts before you throw them in the midst of fiends who would love nothing more than to tear them to bits with their bare hands!

I suppose this argument would work if I was not also in favor of legalising drug use and pardoning all currently convicted non-violent offenders who were sentenced under the current drug laws. That alone would remove 80% of the prison population and would make housing the remaining violent prisoners much easier. The only reason the prison system is as bad as it is now is because of overcrowding from those draconian and inane drug laws. Fixing that problem pulls the pressure relief for the entire system and allows us to focus on improving conditions and safety.

Amen to that! But I'd venture a guess that the people in prison on weed charges, who most definitely need to be set free, aren't the ones most thirsty for rapist's blood!
Meh.
When I hear that a rapist was raped to death in prison... I get a wicked little smile on my face Wink Tongue

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29-05-2014, 07:32 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(29-05-2014 07:19 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 07:10 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I suppose this argument would work if I was not also in favor of legalising drug use and pardoning all currently convicted non-violent offenders who were sentenced under the current drug laws. That alone would remove 80% of the prison population and would make housing the remaining violent prisoners much easier. The only reason the prison system is as bad as it is now is because of overcrowding from those draconian and inane drug laws. Fixing that problem pulls the pressure relief for the entire system and allows us to focus on improving conditions and safety.

Amen to that! But I'd venture a guess that the people in prison on weed charges, who most definitely need to be set free, aren't the ones most thirsty for rapist's blood!
Meh.
When I hear that a rapist was raped to death in prison... I get a wicked little smile on my face Wink Tongue

Probably not but the 500 weed smokers in that prison for smoking weed mean that the Guards have to watch them as much as the actual criminals thus making everyone less safe. Think about it like this would it be easier to keep order among 3 3 year olds or 40 3 year olds?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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29-05-2014, 07:40 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(29-05-2014 07:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 07:19 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Amen to that! But I'd venture a guess that the people in prison on weed charges, who most definitely need to be set free, aren't the ones most thirsty for rapist's blood!
Meh.
When I hear that a rapist was raped to death in prison... I get a wicked little smile on my face Wink Tongue

Probably not but the 500 weed smokers in that prison for smoking weed mean that the Guards have to watch them as much as the actual criminals thus making everyone less safe. Think about it like this would it be easier to keep order among 3 3 year olds or 40 3 year olds?

I guess it depends on how many guards you'd have to first turn into inmates over corruption charges, lol. I have a feeling that not all shankings take place without a guard or 2 knowing about it.
LOTS of fixing is needed, first.
Consider
Corruption sticks in my craw worse than almost anything else, now that I think about it.

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29-05-2014, 07:53 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(29-05-2014 07:40 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 07:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Probably not but the 500 weed smokers in that prison for smoking weed mean that the Guards have to watch them as much as the actual criminals thus making everyone less safe. Think about it like this would it be easier to keep order among 3 3 year olds or 40 3 year olds?

I guess it depends on how many guards you'd have to first turn into inmates over corruption charges, lol. I have a feeling that not all shankings take place without a guard or 2 knowing about it.
LOTS of fixing is needed, first.
Consider
Corruption sticks in my craw worse than almost anything else, now that I think about it.

There all no magical panacea cures for this but each step does help. Of all of them I think the legalisation of at least marijuana and the repeal of the death penalty are the two most likely to happen first however and those alone should let off a lot of pressure from the system.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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29-05-2014, 07:54 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(29-05-2014 07:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 07:19 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Amen to that! But I'd venture a guess that the people in prison on weed charges, who most definitely need to be set free, aren't the ones most thirsty for rapist's blood!
Meh.
When I hear that a rapist was raped to death in prison... I get a wicked little smile on my face Wink Tongue

Probably not but the 500 weed smokers in that prison for smoking weed mean that the Guards have to watch them as much as the actual criminals thus making everyone less safe. Think about it like this would it be easier to keep order among 3 3 year olds or 40 3 year olds?

If they'd keep that many guards employed after paring the prison population down. Budget cuts an all don't cha know. Our genius government will say "hey, we did ok with the ratio of guards and inmates before, look at all the funding we can cut!!!" Dodgy

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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29-05-2014, 08:12 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(29-05-2014 07:54 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 07:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Probably not but the 500 weed smokers in that prison for smoking weed mean that the Guards have to watch them as much as the actual criminals thus making everyone less safe. Think about it like this would it be easier to keep order among 3 3 year olds or 40 3 year olds?

If they'd keep that many guards employed after paring the prison population down. Budget cuts an all don't cha know. Our genius government will say "hey, we did ok with the ratio of guards and inmates before, look at all the funding we can cut!!!" Dodgy

I don't know if any of the Federal prisons have been privatized, yet, but you can be sure that a 'for profit' prison will cut corners wherever they are not regulated not to Undecided I'd read up on the contractual agreements these places make with the Gov, but it'd cut in too much on my resumed channel surfing now that Jokers is over Tongue

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29-05-2014, 09:19 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
Rev,
I agree to an extent that my argument is primarily emotional, why should emotions be discounted regarding this issue? ... I haven't been completely clear I suppose, but I also make the case that human rights and the value of life, with the chance to rehabilitate should be forfeit. ... I will have to check what I am about to state but I'm fairly certain that I have read about a correlation between abandoning capital punishment and an exponential increase in relevant crime in the UK. If this is the case, the risk of death is a deterrent.

cjlr, I never said I would be the judge. A better way to put it, would be to ask that very question of the people in the legal system who release these prisoners back in to society, I know they're 'qualified', but there are so many repeat offenders, someone is getting it wrong somewhere. When a criminal is declared as rehabilitated, I feel justified in asking, who are they to judge? If that criminal hasn't been back in the environment where the temptation to offend exists.

I don't know about the cost of legal complications here in the UK, it's kind of accepted that execution is a much cheaper alternative. That's something I'd have to look in to.

It's a complicated decision for sure.

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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29-05-2014, 09:27 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(29-05-2014 09:19 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Rev,
I agree to an extent that my argument is primarily emotional, why should emotions be discounted regarding this issue? ... I haven't been completely clear I suppose, but I also make the case that human rights and the value of life, with the chance to rehabilitate should be forfeit. ... I will have to check what I am about to state but I'm fairly certain that I have read about a correlation between abandoning capital punishment and an exponential increase in relevant crime in the UK. If this is the case, the risk of death is a deterrent.


I don't know about the cost of legal complications here in the UK, it's kind of accepted that execution is a much cheaper alternative. That's something I'd have to look in to.

It's a complicated decision for sure.

Every statistic says that no there is 0 correlation between having the death penalty and lower murder rates. It is actually the reverse with the murder rate being higher in areas with the Death Penalty. As to the cost earlier in the tread I posted a link to actual studies and real numbers. They all showed the spiraling costs of Capital Punishment with no effect on crime rates.

This is why emotion should be taken out. When all the facts are hard on one side it is stupid to let emotion take over an issue.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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29-05-2014, 09:31 PM
RE: Humanist Approach to the Capital Punishment
(29-05-2014 09:27 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 09:19 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Rev,
I agree to an extent that my argument is primarily emotional, why should emotions be discounted regarding this issue? ... I haven't been completely clear I suppose, but I also make the case that human rights and the value of life, with the chance to rehabilitate should be forfeit. ... I will have to check what I am about to state but I'm fairly certain that I have read about a correlation between abandoning capital punishment and an exponential increase in relevant crime in the UK. If this is the case, the risk of death is a deterrent.


I don't know about the cost of legal complications here in the UK, it's kind of accepted that execution is a much cheaper alternative. That's something I'd have to look in to.

It's a complicated decision for sure.

Every statistic says that no there is 0 correlation between having the death penalty and lower murder rates. It is actually the reverse with the murder rate being higher in areas with the Death Penalty. As to the cost earlier in the tread I posted a link to actual studies and real numbers. They all showed the spiraling costs of Capital Punishment with no effect on crime rates.

This is why emotion should be taken out. When all the facts are hard on one side it is stupid to let emotion take over an issue.

I'd better read the whole thread then Smile

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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