Hurray for the Atheist Fanatic
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02-03-2014, 12:13 PM
RE: Hurray for the Atheist Fanatic
Quote:To most of us, especially those without an advanced degree in the appropriate scientifc areas, the following 2 statements appear on face value to be true:

1) It is impossible for something to have always existed.
2) It is impossible for something to have come from nothing.

However, logically, one of those must be true. We don't know which one.
Logically one must be false. They can both be false. But they both can't be true.
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02-03-2014, 12:16 PM
RE: Hurray for the Atheist Fanatic
(01-03-2014 10:43 PM)Buddhist Alternative Wrote:  Time and Space require being created.
Consciousness creates Matter
A Supreme Consciousness may very well indeed not have required being created
Quantum Physics proves the existence of the Human Soul



Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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02-03-2014, 12:27 PM
RE: Hurray for the Atheist Fanatic
(02-03-2014 12:13 PM)donotwant Wrote:  
Quote:To most of us, especially those without an advanced degree in the appropriate scientifc areas, the following 2 statements appear on face value to be true:

1) It is impossible for something to have always existed.
2) It is impossible for something to have come from nothing.

However, logically, one of those must be true. We don't know which one.
Logically one must be false. They can both be false. But they both can't be true.
Thanks, I see now that what I was thinking wasn't what I said. I meant to say one of these must be true: Either something came from nothing or something always existed.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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02-03-2014, 06:36 PM
RE: Hurray for the Atheist Fanatic
(02-03-2014 12:11 PM)donotwant Wrote:  
(02-03-2014 11:43 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Dodgy

... in which case he (?) isn't interventionist, and the claim of intervention is false.

Yes but he is not falsifiable either. He always has a place to hide.

And then the claim for "his" existence has been modified.

The specific claim put forward has been denied and subsequently retracted. So there's that...

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02-03-2014, 06:37 PM
RE: Hurray for the Atheist Fanatic
(02-03-2014 06:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(02-03-2014 12:11 PM)donotwant Wrote:  Yes but he is not falsifiable either. He always has a place to hide.

And then the claim for "his" existence has been modified.

The specific claim put forward has been denied and subsequently retracted. So there's that...

What has been modified? They say god chooses where he intervenes. And he can choose to intervene where nobodys watching.
So yeah he can still hide.
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02-03-2014, 06:44 PM
RE: Hurray for the Atheist Fanatic
(02-03-2014 06:37 PM)donotwant Wrote:  
(02-03-2014 06:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And then the claim for "his" existence has been modified.

The specific claim put forward has been denied and subsequently retracted. So there's that...

What has been modified? They say god chooses where he intervenes. And he can choose to intervene where nobodys watching.
So yeah he can still hide.

Because these statements:
God intervenes
God could intervene but doesn't
are not equivalent claims.

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02-03-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Hurray for the Atheist Fanatic
Either there is something or there is nothing.
Time is not a factor in this proposition.
We observe that there is something.
Since energy is conserved, problem is solved

~Fin

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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02-03-2014, 07:19 PM
RE: Hurray for the Atheist Fanatic
(02-03-2014 07:10 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Either there is something or there is nothing.
Time is not a factor in this proposition.
We observe that there is something.
Since energy is conserved, problem is solved

~Fin

What?
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02-03-2014, 07:28 PM
RE: Hurray for the Atheist Fanatic
[Image: pigeon2.jpg]

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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02-03-2014, 07:36 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2014 07:41 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Hurray for the Atheist Fanatic
Looks like a shit-and-run pigeon, but anyway....



Quote:Hurray for the Atheist Fanatic

What the fuck is that actually supposed to mean?


Quote: “I don’t know what caused the Big Bang and I don’t know why there is something instead of nothing and that means you don’t know either” – Bill Maher.

Actually, atheism -- essentially the state of not believing certain fairy tales -- is not dependent upon, and has nothing intrinsically to do with, BBT or any other theories of the cosmos or the universe's origins. NOTHING.

Quote:“I prefer Rationalism over Atheism because the question of God is unknowable. As a Rationalist you don’t have to waste your time either attacking or defending either position” – Issac Asimov.


Atheists don't have to, either. Unless, of course, some asshole apolotard is trying to shove their bullshit down our throats in some way or another. Including by attempting to legislate their batshit versions of "morality" on us. Or by pandering nonsensical drivel such as yours in our forums.

Quote:“You should be skeptical of everything, including yourself” – Bertrand Russell. I had to preface this article...


....article....? Is this copypasta spam? Will certainly check into that and reporr if that is the case...


Quote: ...with the above quotes because, although I am a Buddhist and believe in a Supreme Being,


Whatthefuck? The only "supreme being" a Buddhist might "believe in" would be the historical person of the man we call "the Buddha" himself, and that wouldn't be in any sort of magical sense -- that would only be because he was the person who devised and taught his particular systematic approach to achieving personal mental well-being. Your god-woo has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Buddhism.


Quote: I am a great admirer of the above people.

I doubt that.

Quote:My two B.A.’s...

WTF? Really? Is that supposed to impress...ANYONE?



Quote:...are not in Philosophy or Physics, so feel free to tell me that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

You don't.


Quote:You may be right. But I would like to open a discourse with my Atheist friends

We don't make friends with full-of-shit disingenuous lying fucktards.


Quote:...who have a Philosophy that I also admire.


Strawman much? We have no intrinsic philosophy, period.


Quote:That philosophy is: ‘Your Heart should not accept what your Mind rejects’.

I have never heard any atheist say that, here or anywhere else, ever.


Quote:One of the tenants of Buddhism is that you should not accept anything without thinking.

*tenet

And no, that is not a tenet of Buddhism at all.

Do you even know where the passage you are MISquoting comes from? Because I DO, which is why I know you are misquoting it.



Quote:But, I do have a rebuttal for at least two of the statements by some well known, highly intelligent, Atheists:


No, you don't, and even if you did, it wouldn't prove your fairy stories to be true.


Quote: “If God did not require being created, logic dictates that the Universe did not require being created either” – Michael Shermer.

That's not even an assertion. He's calling apolotards like you out on your Special Pleading Fallacy. He is simply turning the tables on your fallacious pseudo-argument.

Quote: My rebuttal is that the Universe is composed of Matter, Energy, Gravity, Time and Space; all of which require being created.

No, they don't. You are merely asserting that ad hoc. And to DO ANYTHING, your mythical sky fairy would fall under the same "rules". And would itself have to "be created". Which, of course, it was: it "created" by the imaginations of superstitious iron- and stone-age goatfuckers.


Quote:Consciousness however is still a mystery.

You claim to be a Buddhist, yet you claim a reified "Consciousness"? Really? You arre unaware that the Buddha considered "consciousness" to be nothing more than sensory awareness? You know nothing of his famous "six forms of consciousness" of the paticcasamuppada? Really?




Quote:In fact, if you’re a follower of the Niels Bohr Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics,...

Strawman Alert!



Quote: ...it is Consciousness that creates Matter.

Oh, yeah -- look, another fucking Solipsist -- here, stick the barrels of my shotgun in your mouth and pull both triggers and prove once and for all just how "Consciousness creates (and thus also "UN-creates") Matter".


Quote:A Supreme Consciousness may very well indeed not have required being created.


More ad hoc drivel that does not follow at all. Oh, and Special Pleading, Goalpost-Moving, and Question-Begging Fallacies as well, all in a mere dozen words.

Quote: To those whose explanation of Consciousness is that the Human Brain is so complex that Consciousness ‘somehow’ evolved;


'Nuther fucking strawman. Who the fuck has asserted that here, or anywhere else?



Quote: ...you should know that using the word ‘somehow’ poses a lot of philosophical problems and questions.


That's just YOU. No one else has said that. No one else has "used that word" but you and your straw dog.



Quote:For example, Immanuel Kant in ‘The Critique Of Pure Reason’ surmised that Space and Time are only the relationship of one object to another; but, if we did not have the concept of Space and Time ‘A Priori’ in our Minds before we were born,..


...before we were fucking BORN, Really?

You really are a fucking Special Kind of Stupid, aren't you.


And again: you are arguing against a straw man.


Quote:...we would not have been able to relate one sense impression to another.
There would be no Awareness or Consciousness.


That's incoherent bullshit -- more ad hoc word-salad drivel, something a moron like Deepak Chopra might say.

And again: Straw Dog.



Quote: “Quantum Mechanics allows for a Universe to come into existence out of Nothing” – Lawrence Krauss. I have several rebuttals for this.
Again: no, you don't.


Quote:First, Quantum Mechanics has become all things to all people. Physicist Fred Alan Wolfe in ‘The Spiritual Universe’ claims that Quantum Physics proves the existence of the Human Soul. John Wheeler believes that the strange results in QP experiments suggest that someone is observing the Universe.


So? Krauss actually knows what he is talking about -- which, by your own admission, you DON'T.


Quote: Secondly, when Dr. Krauss (if I understand him correctly) talks of something coming from nothing – He is talking about Gravity affecting Negative Energy is such a way that virtual particles ‘pop’ into existence which then become real particles. The problem with this, as even physicists who are atheists have pointed out, is that this occurs in Space and in Time within the Universe. The Big Bang occurred in a no-when, no-place, no-gravity. Krauss’s reply is that a true Nothing (no space, no time, no gravity) is unstable. And like all unstable systems, it will eventually collapse in on itself and produce something. I’m not sure how to answer that.

Then STFU.

And I DO know how you answer that: "gawddidit, hurr durr, chekmate atheists!" It's fucking inane.

Quote:In a no-time, how does nothing ‘eventually’ collapse. It should be noted that by the year 2017, there may be satellites in place (according to the Science Channel – ‘How The Universe Works’) that might be able to detect Gravity Waves from a Universe that existed before the Big Bang.


And this too would sink your fairy tales.

Quote:One theory is that a part of 2 separate Universes (each as a wave-like membrane) in a Multi-verse, collided, causing the Big Bang. If these Gravity Waves from a previous Universe are detected, that would obliterate Stephen Hawkings and Lawrence Krauss’s assertion that the Big Bang came from nothing. Of course, that still leaves the question: ‘What caused the first Big Bang ?’. And if the continuous Big Bangs go back in Infinite Regression – the question is: ‘Why is there something instead of nothing ?’


Absolutely none of which has anything whatsoever to do with your fairy tales being fairy tales.


Quote: When I talk with some of my Atheist friends,


Who? And who gives a shit.

Quote:...who I highly regard, I always assert that both positions...


False dichotomy. There are FAR more than two positions wrt your fairy tales.

Quote: ...on the existence of God require a Leap of Faith.


Wishful thinking. But thanks for your admission that a "leap of faith" -- meaning your own gullibility, willful ignorance, and credulity -- is all you have. That is not at all the case with atheists.

Quote:Whenever I state that I always get what I call ‘The Tooth-Fairy’ rebuttal.


Yes, because it completely and utterly destroys your bullshit. You are just too stupid to figure it out.

Quote: My friends will state that they cannot prove or disprove the existence of the tooth fairy. However, they are still not going to believe in the existence of the tooth fairy until there is substantive scientific evidence.


SUFFICIENT COMPELLING evidence.




Quote:My answer to that is: If you want to stay up all night outside your kid’s bedroom after one of them loses a tooth; and the tooth fairy never shows up – you can reasonably assert that there is no tooth fairy.




Except that when it comes to our kids WE ARE the fucking Tooth Fairy. And we are fucking Santa Claus as well. That is, if we opt to play that trick on our children.


And we can also require that you provide sufficient compelling evidence to prove the supposed existence of your fairy tale monster, which you won't because you can't.

But Red Herring coming up in 3...2..1...



Quote: What you can’t do is to go back in Time to the Big Bang and from a position outside the Universe observe the Big Bang and then state: ‘I was there at the Big Bang and I can tell you that there was no Supreme Consciousness. The whole thing was a product of Spontaneous Creation’.



We don't need to. If BBT were to be discredited today, that would not have any bearing whatsoever on the fact of your fairy tales being fairy tales.



Quote:Since you can’t do that, comparing the question of God with the question of the tooth fairy or the spaghetti monster, or whatever, is quite disingenuous.




Not at all. We have plenty of evidence that your fairy tales are fucking fairy tales. And again: the veracity of any scientific cosmic theory or hypothesis has NOTHING to do with your fairy tales being fairy tales.

Quote:This is why Issac Asimov preferred Rationalism over Atheism


No, it isn't why. You don't speak for him, and you can make no claim that your idiotic assertions convinced him.


Quote:...and why Buddhists, although they believe in God,..


No, they fucking don't.


Quote: ...assert that the Nature of God is unknowable.


No, they don't. The Buddha refuted claims of the existance of a creator deity.



Quote: The bottom line is that if you are an Atheist and you state that you don’t belive in God; that is absolutely and perfectly fine.


Says some fucking idiot on the interwebz. Glad you clarified that, because the whole fucking world has been holding its breath waiting for a definitive answer on that.



Quote: However, if you state, as a matter of fact, that there is no God, you are taking a Leap of Faith...


No, "you" are not. And we don't have to say that at all. All we need do is point out your failure to meet your burden of proof. And you CAN'T -- because if you could have, you and other apolotards would have already.


Quote:...and crossing over into the world of Religious Dogma.


And what are the tenets and doctrines of this strawman "religion", exactly? Where are its churches, its scriptures, its
congregations? Produce them or STFU.


Quote:If you state that a God-belief is stupid, you are a religious fanatic.


Because some fucking moron on the interwebz says so? Yeah, right.


Quote: If the Question of God or the Nature of God is unknowable,


You haven't shown anything like that, and you haven't shown that any such being exists.


Quote: ...then why do I believe in God ?


Because you are a credulous, disingenuous, willfully ignorant, self-deluded fucking idiot who doesn't know fuck about the religion you CLAIM to hold to.


Quote: Well, for me, God is not something I believe in, God is a Supreme Being that my Consciousness is aware of.


Again. Not only is that simply incoherent and meaningless Chopraesque word salad, it betrays your abject ignorance of the religion you claim to identify with.

Quote:Of course, what I think I am aware of is not Scientific Proof.



It's not any kind of proof AT ALL.



Quote: So, as a Rationalist,


You are no Rationalist. You aren't even rational.

Quote: I am willing to place this ‘Awareness’


It's not awareness. It's WOO.


Quote: ...down as a Belief and put it down in the category of Faith.


Yes: In other words, WOO.

And I agree with C4L; I don't believe for a second that you are a Buddhist. I think you are an xtian apolotard pretending to be a Buddhist.



And, in the immortal words of one of our esteemed forum members,


Magic Talking Snakes, STFU.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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