Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
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02-07-2017, 08:15 AM
Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
Occasionally I obsess about a topic and lately it is the Holocaust.
I had that topic back at school for two whole years (my teacher was obsessed with it) and nothing really stuck because school was boring and all that was important was names and dates.
Now I am just interested.

So back then the things that happened with the Jews, happened in kind of stages I would call it. At first they were supposed to move into the cities and then into the ghettos and then they were sent to concentration camps and in the end unfortunately they were killed. I know there is more to it but I am trying to keep it short.

Now when they started to move Jews from the country side into the cities, I wonder if they counted on people to be honest about their religion or if there was a register in all those countries that had the religion of all citizens. Nevertheless I find it odd that all these jews went with it.

So here is where my hypothetical comes in:

I was thinking, if somebody was going to send me away because I am an atheist, I would probably not go with the flow just like that.
Now of course it depends on the situation. But for example here in Ireland you are usually not registered as a certain religion. So if an atheist holocaust would happen here, I would say I am Irish Catholic and that would be the end of it. I would go to church and I would pray in public. Everything to keep me and my family safe and sound.
Then again, I don't know in what sneaky way this would be checked. Nowadays it would probably be easy to check via social media profiles. We all leave an online footprint. then again, I can go on my few social media things and make me Catholic within 10 minutes.
Now don't get me wrong. There are things I would not lie about and I would rather die for it than lie about it. But religion is not one of those things. If I need to lie about my state of faith in order to stay alive, I will.
And why? Because I feel it would be a minor inconvenience rather than a huge life changer.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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02-07-2017, 08:35 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
Uh

Yeah

I'd get Jesus before I fry in a human microwave.

It wasn't that simple for the Jews though.
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02-07-2017, 08:48 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 08:15 AM)Leerob Wrote:  Occasionally I obsess about a topic and lately it is the Holocaust.
I had that topic back at school for two whole years (my teacher was obsessed with it) and nothing really stuck because school was boring and all that was important was names and dates.
Now I am just interested.

So back then the things that happened with the Jews, happened in kind of stages I would call it. At first they were supposed to move into the cities and then into the ghettos and then they were sent to concentration camps and in the end unfortunately they were killed. I know there is more to it but I am trying to keep it short.

Now when they started to move Jews from the country side into the cities, I wonder if they counted on people to be honest about their religion or if there was a register in all those countries that had the religion of all citizens. Nevertheless I find it odd that all these jews went with it.

So here is where my hypothetical comes in:

I was thinking, if somebody was going to send me away because I am an atheist, I would probably not go with the flow just like that.
Now of course it depends on the situation. But for example here in Ireland you are usually not registered as a certain religion. So if an atheist holocaust would happen here, I would say I am Irish Catholic and that would be the end of it. I would go to church and I would pray in public. Everything to keep me and my family safe and sound.
Then again, I don't know in what sneaky way this would be checked. Nowadays it would probably be easy to check via social media profiles. We all leave an online footprint. then again, I can go on my few social media things and make me Catholic within 10 minutes.
Now don't get me wrong. There are things I would not lie about and I would rather die for it than lie about it. But religion is not one of those things. If I need to lie about my state of faith in order to stay alive, I will.
And why? Because I feel it would be a minor inconvenience rather than a huge life changer.

This was more of a function of Nazi propaganda, they could demonize any group they wanted to, it really wasn't restricted to just Jews. The term "Jew" was a convenient single word they could use and the Nazis defined it as anyone they didn't like.

Of course they were more than happy to include as many Jews as possible in their definition, but sometimes it was more of a thing of you looking like a Jew as determined by an official in the Nazi party.

Defining the enemy

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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02-07-2017, 08:59 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 08:15 AM)Leerob Wrote:  So back then the things that happened with the Jews, happened in kind of stages I would call it.

Obviously. No genocide happens instantly. At the very least Nazis must have create the definition of Jew.

As a side note - I recommend Hilberg - and Friedlander - if you want to know more about Shoah.

Quote:At first they were supposed to move into the cities and then into the ghettos and then they were sent to concentration camps and in the end unfortunately they were killed. I know there is more to it but I am trying to keep it short.

First major anti-Jewish action was Law for the Reestablishment of the Professional Civil Service of April 7, 1933 which removed Jews and 'politically unreliable" from government service.

Quote:Now when they started to move Jews from the country side into the cities, I wonder if they counted on people to be honest about their religion or if there was a register in all those countries that had the religion of all citizens. Nevertheless I find it odd that all these jews went with it.

There were censuses, for example on from 17.05.1939 speaks about 330 082 Jews in Germany [Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews volume I, p.176 of Polish 2014 edition]. But you're speaking having benefit of hindsight - at this point Jews didn't know what will happen. They couldn't as no Final Solution in form of mass killing was envisioned back then.

Also religion was mentioned in birth certificate if I'm not mistaken.

Quote:So here is where my hypothetical comes in:

I was thinking, if somebody was going to send me away because I am an atheist, I would probably not go with the flow just like that.

Or you would cause you'd be afraid of what gov could do if you not comply. It's fine and dandy to say what one would do when x, but it means nothing till the x actually happen. And that x is thankfully unlikely to happen.

Quote:Now of course it depends on the situation. But for example here in Ireland you are usually not registered as a certain religion. So if an atheist holocaust would happen here, I would say I am Irish Catholic and that would be the end of it. I would go to church and I would pray in public. Everything to keep me and my family safe and sound.
Then again, I don't know in what sneaky way this would be checked. Nowadays it would probably be easy to check via social media profiles. We all leave an online footprint. then again, I can go on my few social media things and make me Catholic within 10 minutes.
Now don't get me wrong. There are things I would not lie about and I would rather die for it than lie about it. But religion is not one of those things. If I need to lie about my state of faith in order to stay alive, I will.
And why? Because I feel it would be a minor inconvenience rather than a huge life changer.

Were state really interested in rounding up atheists then I don't see much options for escaping - neighbors, internet footprints, local churches. Information can be found. State interested in enforced conformity... That's a different story in which attendance at masses could save one life.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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02-07-2017, 09:11 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
I am not sure how much of defining Jew there is really.
There wer a lot of non jew people killed in the holocaust but I have yet to come across them being called anything but what they were in the camps for. A lot of political prisoners or enemies of the state. As far as I know, they didn't just call everybody "jew" they didn't like.

As for the "atheist footprint" I agree we all have that. But we can clear it online. And if we live in a big city where nobody knows their neighbours and so on... Also I could have converted after the last census right? Maybe I didn't get the paperwork done for it or whatever but maybe I am know a christian, right?

Also I agree with the hindsight. Of course now we know. But I think after they were kept moving from here to there and word started leaking what happened, it must have reached jews in the ghettos too, that they were being killed off. Once word reached them, I wonder why they still went with it? Or maybe they were shielded enough that it didn't reach them. I really don't know.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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02-07-2017, 09:27 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2017 09:47 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 09:11 AM)Leerob Wrote:  I am not sure how much of defining Jew there is really.

Then read some article about it.

Germany anti-Semitism was racial one so Germans needed definition of Jew in racial terms. Despite trying they ended with religious one as what mattered was religion of one grandparents (among other things).

Quote:There wer a lot of non jew people killed in the holocaust

Holocaust generally mean genocide of Jews. Mass murder of Romani people for example is known as Porajmos.

Quote:but I have yet to come across them being called anything but what they were in the camps for. A lot of political prisoners or enemies of the state. As far as I know, they didn't just call everybody "jew" they didn't like.

It's somewhat complicated issue. For example Jews were exterminated as partisans - in reality they were killed for being Jews but partisans were easier to sold to would be murderers who had compunctions about killing defenseless. For more info see Marching into Darkness: The Wehrmacht and the Holocaust in Belarus by Waitman Wade Beorn.

Also see Mogilev Conference.

There is also thing about bolshevism or judeo-bolshevism. For Nazis bolshevism was Jewish invention and bolsheviks were Jews. There was also issue of naming other people as Jews to discredit them in eyes of German people - Roosevelt

Quote:As for the "atheist footprint" I agree we all have that. But we can clear it online.

Can you delete your posts on TTA? Can you be sure they wouldn't be found?

Quote:And if we live in a big city where nobody knows their neighbours and so on... Also I could have converted after the last census right? Maybe I didn't get the paperwork done for it or whatever but maybe I am know a christian, right?

Or maybe fact that you didn't do paperwork is used against you and neighbors don't know you but want your place?

Quote:Also I agree with the hindsight. Of course now we know. But I think after they were kept moving from here to there and word started leaking what happened, it must have reached jews in the ghettos too, that they were being killed off. Once word reached them, I wonder why they still went with it? Or maybe they were shielded enough that it didn't reach them. I really don't know.

Anti Jewish actions began in 1933. No one could know then that something that we now call Final Solution will happen. Also during the war one hear many things and checking if they're true may not be possible. There is also difference between suspecting, knowing or being able to do much about it. You also seem to forgot Uprising in Warsaw Ghetto or whatever other things Jews did to forestall their fate. Yehuda Bauer Rethinking the Holocaust may be helpful.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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02-07-2017, 09:31 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
I imagine I would experience a sudden conversion to Unitarian-Universalism, or maybe Universal Life Church.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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02-07-2017, 09:38 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 08:48 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  This was more of a function of Nazi propaganda, they could demonize any group they wanted to, it really wasn't restricted to just Jews. The term "Jew" was a convenient single word they could use and the Nazis defined it as anyone they didn't like.

Not a conveniant single word. It was built on the widespread preexisting antisemitism over wide parts of Europe at the time. Even the USA weren't free of it, as Ford's infamous book shows. Even if you are scapegoating the people you adress have to subscribe to your scapegoat. And the jews were the obvious targets in the 30ies and 40ies.

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02-07-2017, 10:09 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
On several of my social media platforms, I'm known as Rahn127, so a simple Google search pulls up a ton of posts I've made here on TTA.

Some countries already label atheists as terrorists with the penalty being death. I won't be vacationing in those places anytime soon.

I also keep my real legal name out of all social media.

I would not be prepared to resist with armed action if soldiers came to my door to escort me to a "safe space", but resist I would.

It would benefit us most as a civilization if our military soldiers were free from religion, free from gullibility and used critical thinking to evaluate orders instead of blindly following every order.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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02-07-2017, 10:40 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 08:15 AM)Leerob Wrote:  Occasionally I obsess about a topic and lately it is the Holocaust.
I had that topic back at school for two whole years (my teacher was obsessed with it) and nothing really stuck because school was boring and all that was important was names and dates.
Now I am just interested.

So back then the things that happened with the Jews, happened in kind of stages I would call it. At first they were supposed to move into the cities and then into the ghettos and then they were sent to concentration camps and in the end unfortunately they were killed. I know there is more to it but I am trying to keep it short.

Now when they started to move Jews from the country side into the cities, I wonder if they counted on people to be honest about their religion or if there was a register in all those countries that had the religion of all citizens. Nevertheless I find it odd that all these jews went with it.

So here is where my hypothetical comes in:

I was thinking, if somebody was going to send me away because I am an atheist, I would probably not go with the flow just like that.
Now of course it depends on the situation. But for example here in Ireland you are usually not registered as a certain religion. So if an atheist holocaust would happen here, I would say I am Irish Catholic and that would be the end of it. I would go to church and I would pray in public. Everything to keep me and my family safe and sound.
Then again, I don't know in what sneaky way this would be checked. Nowadays it would probably be easy to check via social media profiles. We all leave an online footprint. then again, I can go on my few social media things and make me Catholic within 10 minutes.
Now don't get me wrong. There are things I would not lie about and I would rather die for it than lie about it. But religion is not one of those things. If I need to lie about my state of faith in order to stay alive, I will.
And why? Because I feel it would be a minor inconvenience rather than a huge life changer.

Genocide doesn't just happen on a whim. It would take years of preparations and softening the ground so to speak. By the time the actual killings begin, most people are so brainwashed that they barely even consider that the victims are humans. It happens so gradually that nobody, including the victims, sees it coming.

I am sure people in 1930s Germany could identify a Jew in a reliable fashion. If you were a Jew, you would be known with a reliable degree of precision. If you live in a country, you can usually tell many things about a person just by casual observation of attributes that an outsider would have trouble noticing.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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