Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
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02-07-2017, 10:51 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 10:40 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I am sure people in 1930s Germany could identify a Jew in a reliable fashion. If you were a Jew, you would be known with a reliable degree of precision. If you live in a country, you can usually tell many things about a person just by casual observation of attributes that an outsider would have trouble noticing.

In Europe people have to register at their home adress. That has always been the same throughout the last centuries. So there's no guesswork involved on the parts of the autorities.

As for people not fighting back. How should they have? How should the lawyer, the doctor, the shopowner put up a fight? Alone, since there was no organisation behind. How should the poor farmers in the polish schtetls fight back?

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02-07-2017, 10:51 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

A bit on the bureaucracy of the Holocaust for those who might not know about this. Very disturbing.
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02-07-2017, 10:54 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 10:40 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Genocide doesn't just happen on a whim. It would take years of preparations and softening the ground so to speak. By the time the actual killings begin, most people are so brainwashed that they barely even consider that the victims are humans. It happens so gradually that nobody, including the victims, sees it coming.

The recipe was (in very short terms):

#1 Defame "Jews are greedy. They are to blame for x, y and z"
#2 Discriminate by law
#3 Dehumanize "Jews are like the plage, or rats, or bugs"
#4 Exterminate Once the victims arent seen as humans anymore, extermination can start

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02-07-2017, 11:03 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 10:51 AM)ImFred Wrote:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

A bit on the bureaucracy of the Holocaust for those who might not know about this. Very disturbing.

Wannsee Konferenz (1984), based on the protocols. Lets a shiver run down your spine how *professionally* and at the same time buerocratic these guys acted back then.




Wannsee Konferenz 2001
With Kenneth Branagh as Heydrich. Also very good. Branagh is damn scary.

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02-07-2017, 11:05 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
https://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/20091110-Matthaus-Ch-1.pdf

I encourage everyone to read page 11.
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02-07-2017, 11:27 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 10:54 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 10:40 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Genocide doesn't just happen on a whim. It would take years of preparations and softening the ground so to speak. By the time the actual killings begin, most people are so brainwashed that they barely even consider that the victims are humans. It happens so gradually that nobody, including the victims, sees it coming.

The recipe was (in very short terms):

#1 Defame "Jews are greedy. They are to blame for x, y and z"
#2 Discriminate by law
#3 Dehumanize "Jews are like the plage, or rats, or bugs"
#4 Exterminate Once the victims arent seen as humans anymore, extermination can start

The dehumanization is critical. Because then the extermination can be framed in terms of a public service. Even the killings themselves don't have an official start date. The move from tolerance of random killings of the target population to full-scale state-sanctioned genocide is gradual.

I suspect the potential victims suspect something ominous, but people have a tendency to assume worst scenarios can only happen somewhere else. By the time people realize what's going on, it's too late.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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02-07-2017, 11:43 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 11:03 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Wannsee Konferenz 2001
With Kenneth Branagh as Heydrich. Also very good. Branagh is damn scary.

I love that one. Well, love isn't the right word, but I still remember it being on TV while I was on business trip once... didn't even know what I was watching at first... didn't move for the duration of the entire movie. It was horrifyingly fascinating, the devotion to all tiny bureaucratic detail, as if they were discussing building a road or something as mundane... Beyond scary.








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02-07-2017, 12:07 PM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
Heil Professor!

http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArti...ARTID=3634

Organized hatred against Jews started in Germany after the German states were defeated by Napoleon. The above article describes that bizarre process. Racist college professors in Germany played a big role in radicalizing German University students. This radicalization was well embedded in German society long before Hitler and the Nazis. The Nazis simply built on this long established organized anti-semitism.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

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02-07-2017, 12:36 PM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 11:27 AM)tomilay Wrote:  The dehumanization is critical. Because then the extermination can be framed in terms of a public service. Even the killings themselves don't have an official start date. The move from tolerance of random killings of the target population to full-scale state-sanctioned genocide is gradual.

The timeline is more critical to understand why all of this could happen. During the 30ies the jews were force into a kind of apartheid system but there was no physical violence before November '38 when the first pogrom was organized.

The jews also weren't the first being systematically killed and the system didn't start before the outbreak of the war at all. The Holocaust actually started with the organized murder of the handicapped, mentally as well as physically. There was a large propaganda machine promoting the so called Euthanisa and yet the Germans didn't agree. The program had to be stopped, after news of what really happened reached the public. Foremost by the bishop Von Galen, who authored a pastoral letter to be read in all churches of his diocese. There are documents that the nazis wanted to get rid of him but didn't feel it to be the right time because of public outrage. A written order for the Euthanesia exists. Giving the doctor Karl Brandt authority to in return name certain doctors, who then went on the search in mental institutions for candidates to be killed.

The large scaled and organized murder of the handicapped came to a stop at the end of 1940 before the jewish Holocaust really started. The invasion of the Soviet Union opened up that opportunity. In secret, as the nazis hoped. There never was any written order for the actual Holocaust. Apart from the Wannsee conference. It's also worth noting that the doctors, nurses and security personal of the Euthanasia programm were transferred to the death camps in the east. Such as Treblinka, Maidanek or Sobibor.

There's almost a decade between the nazis taking over and the start of the Holocaust. Filled with a lot of propaganda and at first baby steps to discriminate against jews. Forbidding them to excercize certain professions, forbidding them to use certain facilities, forbidding them from owning certain things, such as radios, cars, later on even bycicles. All of that spread out between 1933 and '38.

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02-07-2017, 01:07 PM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 12:36 PM)abaris Wrote:  The timeline is more critical to understand why all of this could happen. During the 30ies the jews were force into a kind of apartheid system but there was no physical violence before November '38 when the first pogrom was organized.

There was physical violence before Kristalnacht:

These anti-Semitic acts of violence reached a high point on Palm Sunday 1934 in the Upper Bavarian town of Gunzenhausen, when more than a thousand of the inhabitants of this small town marched through the streets, forcibly hauling Jews from their homes and dragging them off to the town prison. One Jewish citizen was later found hanged; another stabbed himself; a few weeks later one of the main perpetrators, who had in the meantime been punished, albeit leniently, shot a Jewish restaurant owner on his own premises. These excesses show how the anti-Semitic hatred of Party activists was liable to explode at any point, even during the phase of ‘relative calm’ that then supposedly characterized the Nazis’ persecution of the Jews.
[Peter Longerich, Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews, p.42 of 2010 English edition]

The hostility to Jewish businesses that had flared up again in the Christmas boycott of 1934 was revived with renewed vigour from early February 1935 in various areas of the Reich, fanned by appeals from regional NS leaders and the Party press.[...]The situation escalated when the Berlin newspaper edited by Goebbels, Der Angriff, which was as rabidly aggressive as its name suggests, made an open appeal on 15 July for people to take physical action to prevent disruptions to a Swedish anti-Semitic film supposedly initiated by Jewish cinema-goers. On that evening there were riots on the Kurfürstendamm during which NS activists forced their way into cafés and forcibly drove out Jewish customers, and these ended in
confrontations with the police.
[Peter Longerich, Holocaust..., p.55]

Quote:The jews also weren't the first being systematically killed and the system didn't start before the outbreak of the war at all. The Holocaust actually started with the organized murder of the handicapped, mentally as well as physically.

It would be better to say that people who took part in T4 Aktion also took part in Shoah as Holocaust is generally used to describe killing of Jews.

Quote:There was a large propaganda machine promoting the so called Euthanisa and yet the Germans didn't agree.

Some of them did.

Quote:The program had to be stopped, after news of what really happened reached the public.

Hitler's call for a halt to the T4 action did not mean an end to the "euthanasia" killing operation. The child "euthanasia" program continued as before. Moreover, in August 1942, German medical professionals and healthcare workers resumed the killings, although in a more carefully concealed manner than before. More decentralized than the initial gassing phase, the renewed effort relied closely upon regional exigencies, with local authorities determining the pace of the killing.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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