Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
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02-07-2017, 02:30 PM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hep-Hep_riots

The Hep-Hep riots of 1819 were a Kristalnacht like series of riots in which Jews were murdered and Jewish property burnt or damaged. Violence against the Jews in Germany had a long, sordid history.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

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02-07-2017, 02:52 PM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 02:30 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hep-Hep_riots

The Hep-Hep riots of 1819 were a Kristalnacht like series of riots in which Jews were murdered and Jewish property burnt or damaged. Violence against the Jews in Germany had a long, sordid history.

It's not like Germany was unique in this regard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa_pogroms

Looking so far back in search of reasons for Final Solution happening in Germany isn't really productive I would say. There is a world of difference between pogroms of old and what was industrial mass murder.

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02-07-2017, 03:17 PM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 02:52 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  It's not like Germany was unique in this regard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa_pogroms

It's the nature of the scapegoating that counts towards the final solution. To hate on jews was fertile ground for demagogues in large parts of the world. Hitler would have had a much harder time choosing a different group to serve as his scapegoats.

The final solution was unique, but the precedences count towards making it possible.

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02-07-2017, 03:22 PM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 03:17 PM)abaris Wrote:  It's the nature of the scapegoating that counts towards the final solution. To hate on jews was fertile ground for demagogues in large parts of the world. Hitler would have had a much harder time choosing a different group to serve as his scapegoats.

Possibly. But one has to remember that antisemitism was only part of his platform.

Quote:The final solution was unique, but the precedences count towards making it possible.

But pogroms were hardly a precedence's to a Shoah. There is a world of difference between the two.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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02-07-2017, 04:10 PM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 03:22 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 03:17 PM)abaris Wrote:  It's the nature of the scapegoating that counts towards the final solution. To hate on jews was fertile ground for demagogues in large parts of the world. Hitler would have had a much harder time choosing a different group to serve as his scapegoats.

Possibly. But one has to remember that antisemitism was only part of his platform.

Quote:The final solution was unique, but the precedences count towards making it possible.

But pogroms were hardly a precedence's to a Shoah. There is a world of difference between the two.

The difference between the Hep-Hep riots of 1819 and Kristalnacht was that the governments in 1819 suppressed these activities while the Nazis encouraged the actions of anti-Semitic radicals.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

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02-07-2017, 06:48 PM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 08:35 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Uh

Yeah

I'd get Jesus before I fry in a human microwave.

It wasn't that simple for the Jews though.

I wouldn't. But then.... if the world headed in that direction and running away is no longer an option, I'd rather be dead. Personally. I have too much .... contempt for religion, I couldn't fake it to survive even if I tried.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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02-07-2017, 08:23 PM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
Do you have a job?
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02-07-2017, 11:30 PM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2017 11:57 PM by Deesse23.)
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 04:10 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 03:22 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Possibly. But one has to remember that antisemitism was only part of his platform.


But pogroms were hardly a precedence's to a Shoah. There is a world of difference between the two.

The difference between the Hep-Hep riots of 1819 and Kristalnacht was that the governments in 1819 suppressed these activities while the Nazis encouraged the actions of anti-Semitic radicals.

I have to correct you here. By 1938, there were no "antisemitic radicals" going out in the street and set buildings on fire...yet.
The nazi regime organized and carried out the Kristllnacht, it didnt encourage the population. Göbbels spew out propaganda, that this was the result of the "rage of the people", but in reality it was entirely organized and conducted by the NSDAP. Goebels hoped that the people on the street would join the SA and SS troops (wearing civilian clothing), but that didnt happen. Instead local NSDAP Gauleiters started, all by themselves, to organize this, being motivated by Göbbels speech and understanding this as a, between the lines, order to start persecution.

John Doe on the street wasnt participating in the Kristallnacht, but watching in consternation. It was reported that most people just stared at the envents as they evolved.

The nazis seized the opportunity and the resulting chaos and confusion to additionally arrest tens of thousandsof jews and send them to Dachau etc.

In this regard it wasnt like the *usual* pogroms europe has seen since the medieval ages. It wasnt a local mob that started or local man in power who started them. It was the first central organized, open agression of a european regime against a group of its own people. In this regard its rather comparable with the purge of the Templars.


Cheerful Charlie Wrote:Violence against the Jews in Germany had a long, sordid history.
Violence against the Jews in Europe had a long, sordid history.

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03-07-2017, 02:31 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
Ok that was interesting. Thanks for all the input.
Big 3-page-history lesson rather than playing with the hypothetical but cool why not.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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03-07-2017, 03:19 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 03:24 AM by abaris.)
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 04:10 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  The difference between the Hep-Hep riots of 1819 and Kristalnacht was that the governments in 1819 suppressed these activities while the Nazis encouraged the actions of anti-Semitic radicals.

The nazis didn't encourage it, they organized it. There has been a conference right after it happened. Chaired by Hermann Goering with a lot of leading nazi figures attending. The results were that the jews had to pay a fine of a billion marks, apart from the insurance companies not compensating them for the damages but the state.

For those of you that speak German. Here's a nazi radio report on the Kristallnacht that shows the whole cynicism.

http://www.oesterreich-am-wort.at/treffe...-1705D4B9/

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