Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-07-2017, 03:39 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 03:43 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
Quote:Ok that was interesting. Thanks for all the input.
Big 3-page-history lesson rather than playing with the hypothetical but cool why not.
Quote:Now when they started to move Jews from the country side into the cities, I wonder if they counted on people to be honest about their religion or if there was a register in all those countries that had the religion of all citizens. Nevertheless I find it odd that all these jews went with it.

The history lesson was part of explaining why the jews werent just denying to be jews and be done with it and why it wouldnt have worked anyway. It was far more complicated than that, and, by the way, it would never have worked. Please remember that the nazi ideology looked at jews as a race, not a religion. There were whole parts of science (craniometry for rexample) compromised with bullshittery to find out who is "jew" by race, by identifiying facial structures for example. So even if you had claimed not to be a jew, and even if you could prove that up to your grandparents nobody was a jew, they possibly would have pointed to those "scientific" results and you still would be under suspicion, which is nothing you want to be in a totalitarian state.

The multiple stage process i mentioned also shows (as well as the Reichskristallnacht) that even by 1938 there was reason for jews not to give up their identity as such. Even by 1938 the population wasnt threatening their lives, it was the government, and it wasnt by far as openly done as in post 1940-41. They had (more or less) good reasons to believe that this was only "temporarily", that the nazi regime wouldnt prevail (it ultimately didnt, it lasted only 12 years!), and that, while being discriminated (which they were already used to in the past 1000y), there wasnt substantial reason to fear for everyones life.

Coincidentally in 1938 the "Kennkarte" was introduced, a precursor to the moden ID. When applying for such a "Kennkarte" they had to mention they are jews.
It was illegal not to mention you are jew in the first place. I doubt many of them thought about being put into deathcamp in 1938 when applying to a "Kennkarte". So i guess they went with the big bold "J".
[Image: k-Mosbach_Wera.jpg]

Then, in 1939 in Germany and by 1941 in all of (occupied) europe they had to wear the yellow (jew) badge. At that time it was only a furthter step of discrimination for people who were already identified as jews.

So in 1941 when the holocaust began....all jews were already identified in the Reich.

In hindsight it was foolish to think they would get away with their lives, but who would have known or believed that the nazi regime would do what it actually has done after 1940-41. If you would tell somebody that they were trying to eradicate all jews in all of europe and that they would manage to kill ca. 6mio within the next 5y, you would have been put into a padded cell.

It all was a very gradual process, and from the start to very late stages one could not clearly see or decide what was intended or what was going to happen. So, many jews just went with being ID-ed and discriminated against in the hope that all would be fine in the end ("Its Germany after all, one of the most civilized and advanced nations! While there is a european tradition of discsrimination of jews, i dont beleive any unsubstanciated claims of genicidal mass murder.").
Just try to give some (from a 1938 perspective of a common person!) evidence for impending genocide! You would be surprised.

Quote:Then again, I don't know in what sneaky way this would be checked. Nowadays it would probably be easy to check via social media profiles. We all leave an online footprint. then again, I can go on my few social media things and make me Catholic within 10 minutes.
I doubt its very hard nowadays to figure out who qualifies for an (evil) atheist to be rounded up. Please keep in mind: We (the opressors) dont care if you really are an atheist, this is not a trial, suspicion is absolutely good enough for us!

In Germany for example, you need to step out of the protestant or catholic church. By default you are in one of both (as you maybe know). So any "real" atheist would have stepped out, and the documents are availiable that you did. Easy-peasy.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Deesse23's post
03-07-2017, 03:55 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(03-07-2017 03:19 AM)abaris Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 04:10 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  The difference between the Hep-Hep riots of 1819 and Kristalnacht was that the governments in 1819 suppressed these activities while the Nazis encouraged the actions of anti-Semitic radicals.

The nazis didn't encourage it, they organized it. There has been a conference right after it happened. Chaired by Hermann Goering with a lot of leading nazi figures attending. The results were that the jews had to pay a fine of a billion marks, apart from the insurance companies not compensating them for the damages but the state.

For those of you that speak German. Here's a nazi radio report on the Kristallnacht that shows the whole cynicism.

http://www.oesterreich-am-wort.at/treffe...-1705D4B9/

Very disgusting, indeed (not only because of the funny austrian accent Tongue ).

Looking at the big picture it is (maybe) relevant for some current development in a certain area of the world to see the similarities:

You have a part of the population that is alrey discriminated against (and/or possibly exploited), that is being defamed by the very top government as "being evil people (lets say: leeches, rapists and drug dealers. By the way: jews were also claimed to be rapists amongst other things. See "Jud Süß"). Then the government is going to take action against this very group, and on top of that is trying to
a) sell it to the masses as their own will
a) put the blame for what has happened on the very group
c) make said group even pay for the damage cause by the government

Does that remind you of something? A "wall" maybe?
That is how discrimination works, at government level.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Deesse23's post
03-07-2017, 04:23 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
Thanks Deesse23 for explaining.
I wonder, something new then.
So just playing with the idea nowadays right. If for a few years, I see that I am being more and more descriminated against because I am in a specific group of the population. Anything just as arbitrary as being jew. So atheist, dark haired, or whatever. I think the more discrimination I see, the more I would probably try to leave the country (or if needed continent) in order to be okay. I mean I have migrated in order to be well before and I wouldn't be opposed to doing it again. Though my migration was not seeking asylum and so it was a bit easier but I wouldn't have a problem to seek asylum somewhere either.
I don't know if the system with asylum seeking was in place back then though. Nowadays it is and could probably be used.
Also I think that probably nowadays, because we are connected world wide through the internet, we can see bad signs coming much easier and faster so for example when Trump was talking about registering every Muslim, people immediately drew the parallel with Jews being tatood back then and opposed the idea.
Doesn't mean that bad stuff can't sneak up on us (see Trump in the US, see asylum issues in Europe, see gays in russia) but generally, we do have the ability to see things coming a mile away nowadays. Or am I wrong?

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
- Wotsefack?! -
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-07-2017, 04:31 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(03-07-2017 04:23 AM)Leerob Wrote:  Thanks Deesse23 for explaining.
I wonder, something new then.
So just playing with the idea nowadays right. If for a few years, I see that I am being more and more descriminated against because I am in a specific group of the population. Anything just as arbitrary as being jew. So atheist, dark haired, or whatever. I think the more discrimination I see, the more I would probably try to leave the country (or if needed continent) in order to be okay.

And that's what many of them did. Or tried at least. But you only have to look at our times that fleeing is easier said than done. Many countries closed their borders in lights of refugees coming.

[Image: Labrador%20and%20Title.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like abaris's post
03-07-2017, 04:38 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 04:42 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(03-07-2017 04:23 AM)Leerob Wrote:  I don't know if the system with asylum seeking was in place back then though.

Back then migration quotas were in place.

Quote:Also I think that probably nowadays, because we are connected world wide through the internet, we can see bad signs coming much easier and faster so for example when Trump was talking about registering every Muslim, people immediately drew the parallel with Jews being tatood back then and opposed the idea.
Doesn't mean that bad stuff can't sneak up on us (see Trump in the US, see asylum issues in Europe, see gays in russia) but generally, we do have the ability to see things coming a mile away nowadays. Or am I wrong?

You may not be wrong but this isn't so simple - for some leaving country x may mean shitty life in country y as for example not everyone is bilingual. There is also issue of money needed to begin new life - not everyone can afford such. In short: you may be able to see things going bad for you but that does not mean that you're able to do something about it or that you're ready to leave place with which you're emotionally tied.

There is also issue of seeing bad stuff for what it is - one may not feel threatened by gov discrimination of homosexuals and one may even applaud it not realizing that gov will not stop with move that bigot approve. Think of Soviet Union - bolsheviks approved of terror against whites or so called former people. You can hardly say that killing of them wasn't bad stuff. Yet Terror was hardly expected and radicalization was more of a surprise than something expected I would say. Nowadays it could be the same.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Szuchow's post
03-07-2017, 05:09 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
Good point Leerob, and you are close to touching a very sensible point from the point of view of all the "anti nazi" countries.

Of course many jews tried to leave germany (although it was much harder back then as Szuchow and Abaris already mentioned), but they werent always very welcome. Thats a stain on the historc coat of many (even if you are looking at the four main allies!) countries. Thats why i mentioned antisemitism being an european problem, not only a german one. In many eouropean countries people werent really thrilled to have heaps of jews heading for them, mostly jews who just lost everything and were basically foreigners. Many jews couldt leave germany because noone wanted them.

Let me make another comparison: *cynicism ON*
"Look at what a hellhole Syria is/was, look at all those poor civilians who had nothing to do with the war going on there. Its good for them to leave the country, i hope for them.....fucking hell, dont come to MY country you fucking syrian, muslim, rapist, foreigner shitbags, trying to ruin our economy, steal our jobs and destroy our *insert your favourite country here* identity".
*cynicism OFF*
Only after there would have been a syrian genocide everyone would have pointed out how much they always hated the agressors and how much they helped thy syrians trying to get out. I bet a paycheck this is exactly what you are going to witness after the whole show is over and debriefings about the whole situation will be done. Nobody will be complaining about stupid germans again, and why they allowed so many syrian *insert your favourite racist and xenophobic stereotype* to flood central europe.

I agree with you that modern communication makes it much easier to collect data to get a picture yourself about the situation, but there are two things:

#1 fake news: With the flood of all the bullshit fake news, many people dont know anymore what is information and what is disinformation. Thats the whole goal of people like the Trump administration and Putin. Once you cant hold back information from the population (like it was back then, bu teven then they alredy did propaganda, thats what fake news was called bck then), just flood em with bullshit, so they dont know right from wrong, so your wrong information looks just as legit as the right information.

#2 the willingness of poeple to accept the truth. We already know that there are enough people out there who arent looking for what is true but for confirmation of their bisases.
Example: if some christinas will only look for conformation of their own persecution complex, they wont accept that actually atheists are rounded up and put into death camps. There will be just enough people just flat out denying the obvious.

#3 as you already mentioned: Is Trump only a "temporary" thing? What is going to happen? Wha tis his goal? Does he have goals? Genocide? Who knows, literally, WHO KNOWS? The fact that its not entirely unimaginable should be scary enough.

Do we have the ability to see things coming? Well we have more access to information, we have lessons from the past...but if it was so easy to predict whats gonna happen, tbh. i would make a shitload of $ out of it. Tongue

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Deesse23's post
03-07-2017, 05:51 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 05:57 AM by abaris.)
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(03-07-2017 05:09 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Of course many jews tried to leave germany (although it was much harder back then as Szuchow and Abaris already mentioned), but they werent always very welcome. Thats a stain on the historc coat of many (even if you are looking at the four main allies!) countries.

As long as Czechoslowakia and Austria existed, many migrated there. Same language, with Czechoslowakia having had a strong german element at the fringes as well as in Prague. And once both countries were occupied it was already much harder to find refuge anywhere in Europe as well as overseas. Eichmann had installed his system in Vienna right after the Germans taking over. A system that left the jews nothing but the cloths on their backs before being allowed to leave. That's where the vicious circle started for real, since no country wanted to allow poor people in. Very similar to how it is now.

There's also another element to the story. A relatively high portion of jews couldn't imagine what was lurking at the end of the road. They were certain, being highly decorated veterans of WWI that Hitler won't touch them. There were also wealthy jews believing that they were too important to be persecuted. I even had one of them in my own family. One of my grand uncles, who owned a factory and, according to my grandfather, always kept saying, he's the biggest tax payer around. They won't touch him. He perished at Auschwitz.

My grandfather got a summons to the Gestapo headquarters in '38. It was pure luck that he met some friendly police officer there, who's been a client of his. The man told him to get out of here and to leave the country the very same day. Which wouldn't have been possible, if my family hadn't had Hungarian roots so that Hungary took them in.

[Image: Labrador%20and%20Title.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes abaris's post
03-07-2017, 10:00 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 08:15 AM)Leerob Wrote:  Occasionally I obsess about a topic and lately it is the Holocaust.
I had that topic back at school for two whole years (my teacher was obsessed with it) and nothing really stuck because school was boring and all that was important was names and dates.
Now I am just interested.

So back then the things that happened with the Jews, happened in kind of stages I would call it. At first they were supposed to move into the cities and then into the ghettos and then they were sent to concentration camps and in the end unfortunately they were killed. I know there is more to it but I am trying to keep it short.

Now when they started to move Jews from the country side into the cities, I wonder if they counted on people to be honest about their religion or if there was a register in all those countries that had the religion of all citizens. Nevertheless I find it odd that all these jews went with it.

So here is where my hypothetical comes in:

I was thinking, if somebody was going to send me away because I am an atheist, I would probably not go with the flow just like that.
Now of course it depends on the situation. But for example here in Ireland you are usually not registered as a certain religion. So if an atheist holocaust would happen here, I would say I am Irish Catholic and that would be the end of it. I would go to church and I would pray in public. Everything to keep me and my family safe and sound.
Then again, I don't know in what sneaky way this would be checked. Nowadays it would probably be easy to check via social media profiles. We all leave an online footprint. then again, I can go on my few social media things and make me Catholic within 10 minutes.
Now don't get me wrong. There are things I would not lie about and I would rather die for it than lie about it. But religion is not one of those things. If I need to lie about my state of faith in order to stay alive, I will.
And why? Because I feel it would be a minor inconvenience rather than a huge life changer.

That's right. You have zero moral obligation to tell the truth to those who initiate force against you. Lie to the best of your ability.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-07-2017, 08:58 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(02-07-2017 08:15 AM)Leerob Wrote:  I was thinking, if somebody was going to send me away because I am an atheist, I would probably not go with the flow just like that.

Wow, this is so incredibly easy to say.

Jews were systematically lied to and manipulated. Most had no idea what was about to happen to them. The military simply moved in and told them they had to be relocated. They boarded those trains having no clue where they were really going. All they knew was that a bunch of soldiers were telling them there was no choice. The soldiers were the ones holding the guns and who were all organized to make sure orders were followed.

The Jews had every reason to believe that things at least wouldn't be that bad - meaning they probably knew it wasn't all quite right since they were made to wear the Star of David, but they probably envisioned only that they were being relocated and would have to make a new start somewhere else. Why take a possibly life-threatening chance disobeying the military when they were "just being moved"? Plus there was the impact of the masses - everyone else was getting on the trains so everyone else seemed to think they would be fine or at least that getting on the train was the right decision.

I recently read "Night" by Elie Wiesel (excellent, btw) and, before his family was transported away from their home, one guy who had witnessed some mass murders of people, even babies, being thrown into flames tried to warn them. But his stories were so heinous they thought it couldn't possibly be true. So that's another factor. Who would have ever imagined that such a horrible thing could really take place?

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-07-2017, 09:17 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(05-07-2017 08:58 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 08:15 AM)Leerob Wrote:  I was thinking, if somebody was going to send me away because I am an atheist, I would probably not go with the flow just like that.

Wow, this is so incredibly easy to say.

Jews were systematically lied to and manipulated. Most had no idea what was about to happen to them. The military simply moved in and told them they had to be relocated. They boarded those trains having no clue where they were really going. All they knew was that a bunch of soldiers were telling them there was no choice. The soldiers were the ones holding the guns and who were all organized to make sure orders were followed.

The Jews had every reason to believe that things at least wouldn't be that bad - meaning they probably knew it wasn't all quite right since they were made to wear the Star of David, but they probably envisioned only that they were being relocated and would have to make a new start somewhere else. Why take a possibly life-threatening chance disobeying the military when they were "just being moved"? Plus there was the impact of the masses - everyone else was getting on the trains so everyone else seemed to think they would be fine or at least that getting on the train was the right decision.

I recently read "Night" by Elie Wiesel (excellent, btw) and, before his family was transported away from their home, one guy who had witnessed some mass murders of people, even babies, being thrown into flames tried to warn them. But his stories were so heinous they thought it couldn't possibly be true. So that's another factor. Who would have ever imagined that such a horrible thing could really take place?

It's not about not knowing what will happen but rather being unable to stop whatever will happen. Jews could try to hide and they did try, just as they tried bribes, talks or appeals to pragmatic side.

Also it's not like all Jews didn't know - look for the example of Warsaw Ghetto uprising, where Jewish resistance decided to die in combat rather than perish in Treblinka.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: