Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
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05-07-2017, 09:33 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(05-07-2017 09:17 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It's not about not knowing what will happen but rather being unable to stop whatever will happen.
I disagree. Knowing it will be something bad about to happen is key in even wanting to stop it. Granted being uprooted from their homes was already "bad" at some level, but "bad" had to be "bad enough" to make it worth facing down a bunch of soldiers with guns. And "bad" had to be worse than the alternative of risking an escape attempt (which it was, but they didn't know that). Again, as far as they knew, they were just being relocated which, if true, wouldn't have been all that bad.

(05-07-2017 09:17 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Jews could try to hide and they did try, just as they tried bribes, talks or appeals to pragmatic side.

Also it's not like all Jews didn't know - look for the example of Warsaw Ghetto uprising, where Jewish resistance decided to die in combat rather than perish in Treblinka.
Yes, sorry, I wasn't implying every Jew fit into what I said. But a huge proportion did.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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05-07-2017, 09:40 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
The Holocaust is one scenario where I can defend the term "ethnically Jewish," the Nazis wanted to do away with the Jews as an ethnic group, they didn't give a shit how pious or devout any single Jew was.
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05-07-2017, 09:48 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2017 10:41 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(05-07-2017 09:33 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I disagree. Knowing it will be something bad about to happen is key in even wanting to stop it. Granted being uprooted from their homes was already "bad" at some level, but "bad" had to be "bad enough" to make it worth facing down a bunch of soldiers with guns. And "bad" had to be worse than the alternative of risking an escape attempt (which it was, but they didn't know that). Again, as far as they knew, they were just being relocated which, if true, wouldn't have been all that bad.

You're free to disagree but that does not change the fact that Jews could do shit to stop what was coming, even when what was coming wasn't mass murder. What German Jews could do in 1933? What they could do later in 1938? And when war started? Those who were young and strong could try to fight, rest could try to hide but neither was easy in Nazi occupied Europe, nor were Jews accustomed to such kind of resistance. Not all countries were Denmark with population willing to help Jews in escape.

Antisemitism wasn't limited to Germany; best that Jews could do was limited and ultimately futile resistance like one in Warsaw Ghetto, where they died on their feet but died nonetheless.

Edit 2: It wasn't only about being uprooted. That would be a small thing not even worthy of mentioning in contrast to what really happened. Jews starved in ghettos, they were killed there, humiliated. Some would say that their situation was bad enough to warrant resistance against people trying to "relocate" them but it's about what is possible not what should be done. Jews resisted as they could, check Yehuda Bauer and Raul Hilberg books.

Quote:Yes, sorry, I wasn't implying every Jew fit into what I said. But a huge proportion did.

Have some quotations to support it?

Edit: Raul Hilberg writes in his The Destruction of the European Jews that Jewish leaders became aware what will happen to them in 1942, 1943, 1944 yet their strategy of passivity remained mostly unchanged [Hilberg, The Destruction..., volume III, p.1289 of Polish, 2014 edition.] On next pages he write about Jewish denial which allowed Germans to use cliched phrases about relocation.

In light of what I wrote above I don't think that majority of Jews didn't know.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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06-07-2017, 07:41 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
Szuchow,

What I disagreed with was when you said "it's not about knowing what will happen, but...". I don't disagree that they couldn't stop what was about to happen. But my point was you wouldn't even be trying to stop something if you didn't know about it in the first place so knowing certainly was at least in part what it was about.

However, after your last post, I see your previous post differently and understand that you were saying that they actually did know, but couldn't stop it. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject so I could certainly be wrong, but my statement was based on some first-hand accounts that I have read such as the book, "Night" by Elie Wiesel that I mentioned and a couple of others. Those accounts each indicated that what they believed was going to happen and what actually happened weren't anywhere close. I would therefore be surprised if the lies and deceit from the Germans and the lack of knowledge among Jews about what was really happening weren't bigger factors than you think.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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06-07-2017, 08:02 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(05-07-2017 09:33 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Yes, sorry, I wasn't implying every Jew fit into what I said. But a huge proportion did.

You have to take into consideration that hardly anyone knew what was gonna happen. It was already well into the war years before they lost their homes and were shipped into the Ghettos. And from there it was another stretch of time until news of the mass killings reached them. By people who managed to escape, also by connecting the dots. Such as no news from their relatives and friends.

The decision for the Ghetto uprising as well as the insurgency at the death camps wasn't an easy one. It was born out of utter dispair in knowing that they didn't stand a chance to survive in any case and could just as well go down fighting.

It's the timeline that matters. By 1941 any real chance at emigration was gone. A few still managed, but the bulk of them didn't stand a chance. If you look at the pictures taken in the Ghettos, you will notice that most of the people were malnourished. No physical strength to speak of. Some still managed to join the partisans. In Poland as well as in Russia. But that was a gamble in itself, since antisemitism wasn't confined to Germany. Every jew turning up at some partisan camp suffered a real chance of being killed or sent away again.

In short, the bulk of the people weren't in any shape to put up a fight. When it came to it, only the young and the healthy could help. The major reason for the insurgency at Treblinka being successful. The ones standing up, the only ones being allowed to live another day, since they had to take care of the dirty work for the SS, got special rations. That's what enabled them to fight in the first place, together with the knowledge of only being the last ones to be killed.

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06-07-2017, 08:08 AM
RE: Hypothetical Atheist-Holocaust
(06-07-2017 07:41 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Szuchow,

What I disagreed with was when you said "it's not about knowing what will happen, but...". I don't disagree that they couldn't stop what was about to happen. But my point was you wouldn't even be trying to stop something if you didn't know about it in the first place so knowing certainly was at least in part what it was about.

However, after your last post, I see your previous post differently and understand that you were saying that they actually did know, but couldn't stop it. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject so I could certainly be wrong, but my statement was based on some first-hand accounts that I have read such as the book, "Night" by Elie Wiesel that I mentioned and a couple of others. Those accounts each indicated that what they believed was going to happen and what actually happened weren't anywhere close. I would therefore be surprised if the lies and deceit from the Germans and the lack of knowledge among Jews about what was really happening weren't bigger factors than you think.

Books such as Night aren't really valuable when one want to understand what majority of Jews knew as they are more about what author lived through. Wiesel wasn't guy in charge just a teenager if I remember correctly - what he think Jews know is just that, his thoughts. At best he can say what Jews surrounding him thought.

Meanwhile Jews in Warsaw Ghetto knew what was going to happen, and if they knew there is not much reason for supposing that others didn't. If you want to dig deeper into subject try Hilberg The Destruction of European Jews. He writes about what Jews know and why despite this knowledge they preferred to "believe" in German lies. You can also check works of Friedlander or Bauer.

Also war lasted long, at first Jews could hope that whatever Germans had in store for them wouldn't be horrible. But it's not like state of knowledge was static during the war - word travel and people can hear many things; mass shootings aren't events that no one heard of and Jews could be made aware of them even by antisemites telling them what happened to Jews in place x and what will happen to them if Germans come here.

Lastly, lies are effective only to certain point. More about it you can find in Hilberg books.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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