I Am Not An Atheist, Please Answer My Questions
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27-10-2015, 10:12 AM
RE: I Am Not An Atheist, Please Answer My Questions
Greetings True Miller. Welcome to the forum. If you don't mind me asking, if you are not an atheist, what are you? Just curious.
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27-10-2015, 07:31 PM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2015 07:48 PM by natachan.)
RE: I Am Not An Atheist, Please Answer My Questions
(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  As told to in my introduction thread, I'm posting my questions here. But to start with, you must understand that I believe in "god"--but not a flying bearded man that smites, but more a divine creator.


Welcome! But I will say off the bat that the definition you just gave is extremely vague. I still don't really know what you believe in when you say "divine creator" than if you had said "purple flibbity jibbet."

Quote:I'm not looking for you to disprove religion, as I'm not religious and I couldn't give a flying f-bomb about whether Jesus walked on water or whether we burn for eternity if we're bad on Earth. I just want straight answers about what you think, as a person.

I've grown to assume that Atheists are people that rely on fact, and that they constantly criticise religion for that lack of it. So, I just want to understand your Atheist perspective on these questions.

a) How is everything everything

I'm sorry, what does this mean? Do you mean "why is there something rather than nothing?" Do you mean what is the universe? Because these are both better questions than this. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Quote:b) What is existence

Oh I could write a book on this.

What does it mean for something to exist? It means that this is an element of the universe. The universe is all the matter and energy and spacetime. In essence what I consider to be "existence" is that which is external to and contains myself.

Quote:c) What purpose do you have in life

To be happy. To do productive work. To perhaps leave the world a better place for my being in it.

Think about it. Whenever a human couple try to procreate millions of possible genetic combinations are thrown out. Only one will come to become a zygote. And of those zygotes the majority will not come to term. This means that the majority of people who could be will never be. And what are the odds that my parents would fall in love? Or that they would even meet? My dad had a full ride to college in Washington, but decided to go to school in Minnesota, where he met my mom. And what are the odds of them being born? Or their parents? How about the odds against an asteroid hitting the earth and clearing the niches of the dinosaurs so mammals could rise up? Or even of the elements needed for life, created in the hearts of supernovas, being blown into this region of space?

We are so lucky to live. Our lives are statistical anomolies so rare they should be called impossible. Yet here we are. In the face of this all I can be is grateful for the chance to live. What further purpose do I need?

Quote:d) Why do you abide by religion-based laws

I don't. Any I do are only incidentally religious. I refrain from stealing not because some god commanded it, but because I value personal property and my own integrity. As such why would I want to steal? And what does it matter what some god says anyway?

Quote:e) Do you believe that everything was created, whether pre-determined or not

I don't like the term "created" because it implies agency where there is no reason to consider it. So the answer is that I do not believe any conscious agency was behind the beginning of the universe. I am open to being wrong, but I have seen nothing to indicate it.

Quote:f) How can we disprove that everything was made by a divine creator when we are all sat on a flying ball of rock, flying away from the point of creation

Huh? I'm sorry to nitpick but the grammar is so bad here that I'm having trouble grasping what you are trying to say. I think you are asking something along the lines of "how do you disprove god since we are so improbable?"

The answer is that it is not on me or anyone else to disprove anything. It is on the one making the claim of some sort of creative agent to provide a reason to believe it. And improbability is not compelling. It is improbable that I can roll two sixes three times a row in Monopoly, but it happens. No divine agent necessary. Just because something is improbable doesn't mean that an agent is required to explain it. Our brains just like agents for explanations because they are convenient.

Quote:g) If you put something in an impenetrable, inescapable box forever (a vast infinite universe), and you never tell it what made the box, or what the box is, how can it ever know anything more than what is in the box?

I'm sorry, I really don't understand this question. I think you're trying to make an analogy to us and the observable universe. I really can't tell what the point of this one is.

Quote:h) As an atheist, do you care about wrong-doing for anything more than the human consequences?

This shows a gross misunderstanding of what "wrong-doing" is. The only context in which any action is moral or immoral is in the presence of moral agents. Without moral agents then there is no "wrong-doing" because there is no moral or immoral. These rely on value judgements which need someone to do the valuing. If there is no one then the ideas lose any coherence.

Quote:i) Which religion do you despise most, and give me 3 points as to why. Preferably not tainted by media propaganda.

Woo! Tough one.

I don't despise religion in general. I think if people need a community and if they need some sort of comfort that they find in super-naturalism that's ok. My family is very heavily Catholic and what they hold as religion I have no real problems with. What I do despise is dogma and doctrine.

On these fronts all three of the great monotheistic religions are terrible. Just terrible. They are all misogynistic. They are all fiercely xenophobic. They all have detestable pieces of mythology.

Quote:j) Are you sure that God does not exist.

I have a standing invitation to debate the existence of god with anyone who can provide a solid working definition. Some gods clearly do not exist. Some do. Depends on how you define the term. I can make no judgement until I know what it is we are talking about.

Quote:k) Arguably, the proof that God exists is all around us, existence, so why do Atheists disagree?

1. Define "God"
2. If you mean that proof of agency exists in the universe then I'll ask you to point to the evidence. Because I don't see it. I see natural understandable forces acting. We might not know all of them at the moment but I see no evidence of intentional agency. If you do present it.

Quote:l) What do you believe?

What I have reason to. What the evidence supports.

Quote:More questions may come, but these ones are the ones at the front of my mind. Please try to stay on topic, I want to advance my understanding of atheism.

As long as you are civil and honest I will be happy to help. Some of the questions here are dangerously close to being disingenuous, but I will for the moment assume they are asked in good faith. So long as this seems to be the case I will respond in kind.
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(26-10-2015 10:23 AM)True Miller Wrote:  I assume its our belief framework, theists believe that something puts something somewhere, atheists believe that everything has always been, however science can only observe? And atheists base everything on Science? Correct me if I am wrong.

Actually no. I stopped believing because I found that my theism was baseless and internally inconsistent. It was my study of history that killed theism for me. My scientific education had nothing to do with it.

I don't think that theists and atheists have the same base. I think their philosophies and epistemology are fundamentally different. But I won't paint with too broad a brush here, since there are atheists in all forms. For me, theism in the forms I was taught was not philosophically viable.
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27-10-2015, 08:05 PM
RE: I Am Not An Atheist, Please Answer My Questions
(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  a) How is everything everything

Everything is everything because nothing is nothing

Quote:b) What is existence

That fuzzy area between everything and nothing where socks tend to disappearRolleyes

Quote:c) What purpose do you have in life

Titties and beer

Quote:d) Why do you abide by religion-based laws

Religious oppression

Quote:e) Do you believe that everything was created, whether pre-determined or not

Some things were created, like clip-on ties and digital watches

Quote:f) How can we disprove that everything was made by a divine creator when we are all sat on a flying ball of rock, flying away from the point of creation

Occam's razor for a really close shave


Quote:g) If you put something in an impenetrable, inescapable box forever (a vast infinite universe), and you never tell it what made the box, or what the box is, how can it ever know anything more than what is in the box?

By making up a cute little story about how it was created by an infamous sky wizard that is concerned about what you do while naked

Quote:h) As an atheist, do you care about wrong-doing for anything more than the human consequences?

No, because how could I then justify eating babies?

Quote:i) Which religion do you despise most, and give me 3 points as to why. Preferably not tainted by media propaganda.

Probably that of the ancient ones. Nothing quite fucks up your world like Cthulhu on a bender

Quote:j) Are you sure that God does not exist.
No, he totally exists. I'm just mad at him because he killed my loved ones Tongue
Quote:k) Arguably, the proof that God exists is all around us, existence, so why do Atheists disagree?

Because creationism has been the greatest source of entertainment for us atheists. Why ruin a good thing?
Quote:l) What do you believe?

I believe life is way too fucking short to put stock into something that lacks any merit whatsoever

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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27-10-2015, 09:04 PM
I Am Not An Atheist, Please Answer My Questions
(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  a) How is everything everything
Maybe it's not. We just don't know.
Quote:b) What is existence
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Existence
Quote:c) What purpose do you have in life
None really. I just try to satisfy my needs and wants.
Quote:d) Why do you abide by religion-based laws
Jail
Quote:e) Do you believe that everything was created, whether pre-determined or not
There must have been a cause but what it was nobody knows.
Quote:f) How can we disprove that everything was made by a divine creator when we are all sat on a flying ball of rock, flying away from the point of creation
Because it's a made up fairy tail story that has zero evidence.
Quote:g) If you put something in an impenetrable, inescapable box forever (a vast infinite universe), and you never tell it what made the box, or what the box is, how can it ever know anything more than what is in the box?
You probably won't unless you find a way to get past the box.
Quote:h) As an atheist, do you care about wrong-doing for anything more than the human consequences?
Not really. This doesn't mean that I have any desire to do wrong though. I am a being that evolved to value society.
Quote:i) Which religion do you despise most, and give me 3 points as to why. Preferably not tainted by media propaganda.
The one that cuts your head off.
Quote:j) Are you sure that God does not exist.
About as sure as I am that Leprechauns don't exist.
Quote:k) Arguably, the proof that God exists is all around us, existence, so why do Atheists disagree?
This is a very retarded statement. I can say the same thing in a different way and I think you will agree.
Arguably, the proof that Leprechauns exists is all around us, existence, so why do theists disagree?
Quote:l) What do you believe?
I believe that I will only exist for a short time and soon after I die, I will be forgotten forever and it won't matter a bit.
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27-10-2015, 09:58 PM
RE: I Am Not An Atheist, Please Answer My Questions
(26-10-2015 08:16 AM)enochian Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  As told to in my introduction thread, I'm posting my questions here. But to start with, you must understand that I believe in "god"--but not a flying bearded man that smites, but more a divine creator.

I'm not looking for you to disprove religion, as I'm not religious and I couldn't give a flying f-bomb about whether Jesus walked on water or whether we burn for eternity if we're bad on Earth. I just want straight answers about what you think, as a person.

I've grown to assume that Atheists are people that rely on fact, and that they constantly criticise religion for that lack of it. So, I just want to understand your Atheist perspective on these questions.

a) How is everything everything
b) What is existence
c) What purpose do you have in life
d) Why do you abide by religion-based laws
e) Do you believe that everything was created, whether pre-determined or not
f) How can we disprove that everything was made by a divine creator when we are all sat on a flying ball of rock, flying away from the point of creation
g) If you put something in an impenetrable, inescapable box forever (a vast infinite universe), and you never tell it what made the box, or what the box is, how can it ever know anything more than what is in the box?
h) As an atheist, do you care about wrong-doing for anything more than the human consequences?
i) Which religion do you despise most, and give me 3 points as to why. Preferably not tainted by media propaganda.
j) Are you sure that God does not exist.
k) Arguably, the proof that God exists is all around us, existence, so why do Atheists disagree?
l) What do you believe?

More questions may come, but these ones are the ones at the front of my mind. Please try to stay on topic, I want to advance my understanding of atheism.


There are more options than just New Atheism versus a Creator.

As a Buddhist, I put New Atheism in the same philosophical camp as a Creator.

You clearly haven't thought that one through.
If you think they are comparable, you need an education. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-10-2015, 10:01 PM
RE: I Am Not An Atheist, Please Answer My Questions
(26-10-2015 08:28 AM)enochian Wrote:  Neither New Atheism or Abrahamic religions understand the logic of Anutpada.

So from the Buddhist perspective they are the same.

What has that contributed to knowledge? Nothing, it is a surrender of reason.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-10-2015, 05:18 AM
I Am Not An Atheist, Please Answer My Questions
Im actually very glad you asked. Question One: Its a broad question with a broad answer. Because it is, and everyday we try to find out why. We cant make assumptions and must use logic to answer our questions. Question 2: Existence can be looked at as a state of being. Verifiable by evidence even though it seems silly to do so. We have evidence the chair Im sitting on exists (or Id fall on my ass right now). We as humans have evolved intelligently to have a much higher understanding of thing to where we ask questions about existence. Question 3: Through humanity's time on this planet we have come to realize the best thing you can do is something great for someone else. "Great men plant trees whos shade theyll never sit under" My purpose is to help make his world better than it was when first got here. Other's purposes may be different. Its all different to the person. Question 4: Many Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc. believe our morals came from a divine creator, which to me seems ridiculous. We have the Persian Empire who was the first nation to outlaw slavery long before Jesus existed. Confucius live and died 500 years before Jesus and he influence millions on how to live in respect to their fellow man. Morals come from the humanistic idea that "I wont hurt them because I wouldnt want them to hurt me". Question 5: My answer to that is we dont know. However, because we dont know, it doesnt mean we can say a God did it. We have to find evidence to the tell the story and we are. Geologists, Biologists and Physicists are all working to put the puzzle together and were making progress. Question 6: The problem with disprove this idea is that this idea has never been proven. Yes, we are on a big rock, third from the sun, but there is no proof it was create by a god. We'll more than likely be coming back to this. Question 7: This is a very good question and Im sure many philosophers have thought this too. However, we have ideas about fabrics of space time and multi universes that let us think outside of the box. Yes, pun intended. Question 8: I think wrong actions should be corrected and punishment is due according to the crime but an eternity in torture seems extreme for never knowing a deity on a first name basis. Same as a person getting to live in paradise for eternity because they confessed their sins for a life only 70-80 years long. Question 9: I dont want to say I hate one religion but I just think organized religion is dangerous to society. Three things I hate about organized religion is 1. It discourages knowledge and progress 2. It uses fear to convince you that their religion is correct 3. Its been used to oppress and conflict groups of people all throughout history. Question 10: I would say existence is proof of Gods Existance, like I said earlier, we dont know but cant just say its God. The world around us is just as much proof for Allah, Ra, Zeus, Odin, Krishna, etc. Question 11: I believe alot of things, I believe the Red Sox could do good next year but I could be wrong. Belief is temporary until fact is introduced.
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12-12-2015, 02:37 PM
RE: I Am Not An Atheist, Please Answer My Questions
At least you are asking questions, and that is important.

You have the rest of your life to pursue the answers, which is all any of us really have.

I could answer quite a few, but why spoil your fun? I highly value my own search for meaning and would not want to short-circuit your search. Enjoy.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurus (341-270B.C.E.)
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13-12-2015, 01:00 AM
RE: I Am Not An Atheist, Please Answer My Questions
(28-10-2015 05:18 AM)barkercolin91 Wrote:  Im actually very glad you asked. Question One: Its a broad question with a broad answer. Because it is, and everyday we try to find out why. We cant make assumptions and must use logic to answer our questions. Question 2: Existence can be looked at as a state of being. Verifiable by evidence even though it seems silly to do so. We have evidence the chair Im sitting on exists (or Id fall on my ass right now). We as humans have evolved intelligently to have a much higher understanding of thing to where we ask questions about existence. Question 3: Through humanity's time on this planet we have come to realize the best thing you can do is something great for someone else. "Great men plant trees whos shade theyll never sit under" My purpose is to help make his world better than it was when first got here. Other's purposes may be different. Its all different to the person. Question 4: Many Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc. believe our morals came from a divine creator, which to me seems ridiculous. We have the Persian Empire who was the first nation to outlaw slavery long before Jesus existed. Confucius live and died 500 years before Jesus and he influence millions on how to live in respect to their fellow man. Morals come from the humanistic idea that "I wont hurt them because I wouldnt want them to hurt me". Question 5: My answer to that is we dont know. However, because we dont know, it doesnt mean we can say a God did it. We have to find evidence to the tell the story and we are. Geologists, Biologists and Physicists are all working to put the puzzle together and were making progress. Question 6: The problem with disprove this idea is that this idea has never been proven. Yes, we are on a big rock, third from the sun, but there is no proof it was create by a god. We'll more than likely be coming back to this. Question 7: This is a very good question and Im sure many philosophers have thought this too. However, we have ideas about fabrics of space time and multi universes that let us think outside of the box. Yes, pun intended. Question 8: I think wrong actions should be corrected and punishment is due according to the crime but an eternity in torture seems extreme for never knowing a deity on a first name basis. Same as a person getting to live in paradise for eternity because they confessed their sins for a life only 70-80 years long. Question 9: I dont want to say I hate one religion but I just think organized religion is dangerous to society. Three things I hate about organized religion is 1. It discourages knowledge and progress 2. It uses fear to convince you that their religion is correct 3. Its been used to oppress and conflict groups of people all throughout history. Question 10: I would say existence is proof of Gods Existance, like I said earlier, we dont know but cant just say its God. The world around us is just as much proof for Allah, Ra, Zeus, Odin, Krishna, etc. Question 11: I believe alot of things, I believe the Red Sox could do good next year but I could be wrong. Belief is temporary until fact is introduced.


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27-03-2016, 09:23 PM
RE: I Am Not An Atheist, Please Answer My Questions
(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  a) How is everything everything
I'm not sure what you mean here.

To me, everything isn't a definition of absolutes. In other words, we don't say, this universe is everything. We don't know. There may be multiple universes, parallel universes, other dimensional realities, and things we can't even begin to grasp yet.

When we talk of everything, we mean everything that is known and unknown. Science is not about absolutes. It does not say we know everything and that is it. Rather, it says, here is what we know and the evidence to support it which is all demonstrable and repeatable. When those rules or laws become invalid under certain conditions, then we will attempt to find out why. Repeat.

(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  b) What is existence

Remember that when you ask questions such as the ones you are asking - you're going to get a plethora of answers. Atheism is not a doctrine nor is it a set of rules that people must follow. There are atheist that believe in Big Foot and there are atheists that don't. When people ask these type of questions of atheists - the questions are really aimed at specific types of atheists. However, I would argue that these types of arguments are really grounded in apologetics and creationism and are frequently asked to try to prove something.

With that being said, I'll continue to give you my answers. They don't speak for others anymore than their responses might reflect mine. Atheism is not a set of beliefs. It is a lack of a single belief and everything else is off the table.

In my view, existence is anything that objectively continues to exist regardless of one's presence. In other words, I objectively know that trees exist because I have collaborated with others to determine this. We have scientists that have studied trees and worked on understand how different trees function. We know how to grow them, how they get water, what nutrients they need, how fast they grow, how tall they grow, etc. All of this is outside of my presence, but through collaboration and testing, we can objectively determine that trees exist.

(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  c) What purpose do you have in life

Bill Bryson wrote an interesting book entitled, "A short history of nearly everything." Worth a read.

In it - he talks about how we came to be and I always found it to be very astounding.

In short - and doing him no justice whatsoever - he starts with this:

That over an extreme amount of time, our ancestors have been lucky enough to reach a certain age, were good looking enough to meet a partner, and ultimately to mate. Not to mention how terribly hard this was considering all the dangers to our ancestors. And he finally concludes with:

“Not one of your pertinent ancestors was squashed, devoured, drowned, starved, stranded, stuck fast, untimely wounded, or otherwise deflected from its life's quest of delivering a tiny charge of genetic material to the right partner at the right moment in order to perpetuate the only possible sequence of hereditary combinations that could result -- eventually, astoundingly, and all too briefly -- in you.”

When people ask me this question, and they believe in God, I find it interesting that they find that to be inspiring. On one hand, you have a god that just wanted you to exist so you exist. On the other, you have this incredibly chaotic timeline of mating rituals that had any one of them happened a second later or in a different way - it would not have led to me.

Given that, my purpose needs to be worth that journey. That purpose - to me - is in contributing towards the future of humanity and the well-being of our species, all of the species that we interact with, and the worlds with in which we live.



(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  d) Why do you abide by religion-based laws

This question is odd. Why do you abide by secular laws? Laws are laws.

(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  e) Do you believe that everything was created, whether pre-determined or not

I believe that everything happened. Create means for something to come into being that couldn't have done so naturally or through ordinary processes. It also means to cause to happen through intention or design.

It is more accurate to say that I believe things happened. They happened due to chaos and by chance, but given the rules of physics - known and unknown - certain things are likely or plausible to happen. It should be no surprise there are so many galaxies because galaxies seem to have a tendency to happen.

(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  f) How can we disprove that everything was made by a divine creator when we are all sat on a flying ball of rock, flying away from the point of creation

I'm not sure what you mean either. As mentioned, the burden of proof lies with anyone that makes the claim of the creator. If there was solid proof of a creator than most of the atheists I know would gladly accept one. We aren't anti-god or anti-creator. We just don't believe in one because there isn't sufficient proof.

I'm going to make some assumptions here. I think you are making the following points:
1. We know the universe is spreading from the location of creation (Big Bang Theory.)
2. We live on a planet in that universe that is fleeing that location.
3. How then can we prove that whatever created that initial force of expansion isn't a creator?

The problem with this reasoning is this. Everything we do know is testable and based on measurable science. We don't just say something is. When that happens, other scientists come along and try to disprove it. When a hypothesis has been so thoroughly tested and absolutely repeatable by these people - it becomes a theory.

Considering that, why would we have an entire model of the universe, galaxies, stars, planets, life, and so forth based on science and then assume that the force that caused the expansion in the first place was a thinking, talking being that wanted to create everything?

That doesn't make sense. Someone above mentioned Occam's razor. In other words, the simplest answer is probably the right answer. The more assumptions we have to make - the less likely we have an explanation.

(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  g) If you put something in an impenetrable, inescapable box forever (a vast infinite universe), and you never tell it what made the box, or what the box is, how can it ever know anything more than what is in the box?

This is a faulty analogy and someone else mentioned that. But, I'll bite.

Let's say I make a spark in a box and from that spark stems billions and billions of galaxies and multitudes of planets with life on them. And let us assume they eventually reach our scientific level which is to say they know a spark happened but not much else.

Eventually, by drilling a hole, they realize they are in a lab. Who is this guy? Where did he come from? What language does he speak? What government does his world have? Your very analogy forgets that I come from somewhere and that others of equal importance exist in my world. I am not a god and my importance as a creator would be or least shouldn't be of importance.

There purpose in that example would be a scientific experiment. They could take that for all the mighty motivation it creates or live their lives the way they see fit and make the best of it.

(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  h) As an atheist, do you care about wrong-doing for anything more than the human consequences?

I have strong morals - none of which are informed by a higher power. I strongly believe, as studies have shown, that critical thinking leads to an increase in empathy. I am empathetic and because of that I am a moral person. Consequences are not part of the equation. I think of the world Gene Roddenberry envisioned with the Star Trek universe. They strove to be moral and they strove to do the right thing - not because of consequence. Morals that are informed by punishment are not morals - that is obedience. Our morality should be informed by a higher standard that we hold ourselves up to and strive to meet.

I think this very type of question clearly says a lot about the morality of many people that believe in a god.

(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  i) Which religion do you despise most, and give me 3 points as to why. Preferably not tainted by media propaganda.

I don't despise any religion. I think all religions do good and all religions do bad. The thing I dislike the most would be Christianity in the United States. It strongly seems to be more about political affiliation and political beliefs and less about their so-called God. I also dislike the fact that they try to force their beliefs on others through laws and government.

(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  j) Are you sure that God does not exist.

I have not been given strong enough evidence to suggest this is true.


(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  k) Arguably, the proof that God exists is all around us, existence, so why do Atheists disagree?

This presumes purpose. In other words, take the fine-tuned argument that goes something like this: If you changed the laws of our universe a tiny bit, life would not be possible. This argument is used to make it seem like the universe is fine-tuned.

I haven't studied a lot of the scientific rebuttals on that argument, so I'll give you my thoughts. I think it ties in with your argument fine.

1. It presumes that life as we know it is the only way life can exist. It could be very well possible that there is life in this universe that is so contradictory to our current understanding of life that it would create a slew of whole new fields of study in science. For instance, silicon-based life could exist or some other form.

2. It presumes that the laws of physics could exist in such a way that is different enough to cease the existence of life. In other words, it might be that every law in physics is regulated by other laws. How do we know that the laws could be different?

3. There could be other universes with laws of physics that are drastically different than our own and we couldn't live there. This could have happened to ours also. However, how do we know that a completely unimaginable form of life couldn't exist in that universe and they aren't asking the same question?
While the argument suggests that the universe is finely tuned for life, it seems more probable that life is finely tuned to the universe.

4. That argument applies that life is significant. It might be that life is just one of many significant things that can happen in a universe. It might be that life is not all that significant when compared to other things in the universe that we don't know yet.

5. It assumes that complexity means creation. If that is true and it is true that the universe has a creator, then the creator has a creator due to that creator's complexity and we would never find an end to creator's of creators.

The point is that when you look around, you assume a creator's existence is evident. I don't see that. People once thought thunder was created by a god named Thor. To them - that was a very evident truth. How else could thunder happen? In my view, to say that the evidence is all around us is to admit ignorance about science and how the world works.

(26-10-2015 03:03 AM)True Miller Wrote:  l) What do you believe?

I believe that we are not alone in the universe. However, I don't live my life around that belief and it is fully willing to change based on proof.
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