I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
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01-06-2014, 07:49 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 07:46 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  God by definition is uncaused.

... and therefore by definition does not exist.

Unless of course you are arguing that something can exist without a cause, like a universe for example.

And while we're at it, please define what you mean by 'caused' .
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01-06-2014, 07:51 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 07:43 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  God would have to be caring and concerned about us. If not, He would not be God.

So your God simply doesn't care about all the people suffering?

(01-06-2014 07:43 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The Greatest Conceivable Being exists necessarily and is unparalleled in Goodness, Power, and Knowledge.

You are defining God by YOUR definitions of greatness. What gives you the right to do this?

Truth seeker.
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01-06-2014, 07:54 AM (This post was last modified: 01-06-2014 11:55 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 07:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  i know the unvierse began to exist because it is impossible to traverse an actually infinite number of past events and i know the universe began to exist because the empirical data we have tells us it did.

From atheistic physicist Stephen Hawking:

"All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago. This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology. Yet it is now taken for granted." (The Beginning of Time Lecture, Stephen Hawking British Theoretical Physicist and Honorary Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, a lifetime member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, and in 2009 was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award in the United States. Hawking was the Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at the University of Cambridge between 1979 and 2009. Subsequently, he became research director at the university's Centre for Theoretical Cosmology.)

Roger Penrose, (Hawking's friend) would dispute all of these, ("Cycles of Time"). We simply don't know at this point. The Big Bang was a "singularity". Time comes to a stop from the vantage point of a distant observer, at a singularity. Using the Big Bang to try to say something about "what happened prior to spacetime" is meaningless, and has no support in the science. It's a weak attempt by Presuppositionalists to use something in the science that is simply not there. The fact is Hawking's thinking, as all people's do, evolved. In his latest book, "The Grand Design", he in NO WAY implies that a deity created or had anything to do with, or that the universe needed a deity. IF you're going to cite him as an authority in one instance, Germey Wanker, YOU must accept what he says in others concerning the VERY same subject, you dishonest lying troll.

A being that exists "necessarily'' is subject to (the laws of) Reality. Stop using that ridiculous argument. It demonstrates your deity cannot be the creator of the very Reality in which it MUST necessarily participate. It really is not helping your case, Germey.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-06-2014, 08:06 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 07:46 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(01-06-2014 07:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  i know the unvierse began to exist because it is impossible to traverse an actually infinite number of past events and i know the universe began to exist because the empirical data we have tells us it did.

From atheistic physicist Stephen Hawking:

"All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago. This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology. Yet it is now taken for granted." (The Beginning of Time Lecture, Stephen Hawking British Theoretical Physicist and Honorary Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, a lifetime member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, and in 2009 was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award in the United States. Hawking was the Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at the University of Cambridge between 1979 and 2009. Subsequently, he became research director at the university's Centre for Theoretical Cosmology.)


From agnostic astronomer Robert Jastrow:

"Recent developments in astronomy have implications that may go beyond their contribution to science itself. In a nutshell, astronomers, studying the Universe through their telescopes, have been forced to the conclusion that the world began suddenly, in a moment of creation, as the product of unknown forces." ( Excerpt from Truth Journal by Professor Robert Jastrow-Ph.D. (1948), from Columbia University; Chief of the Theoretical Division of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (1958-61) and Founder/Director of NASA 's Goddard Institute; Professor of Geophysics at Columbia University; Professor of Space Studies-Earth Sciences at Dartmouth College)

Einstein's discovery of General Relativity is well known to those in the scientific community. It was the beginning of a string of events that led to a greater understanding of our universe. Einstein's calculations revealed that there was actually a definite beginning to all time, all matter, and all space. Being irritated by this discovery he later introduced a cosmological constant into his equations to make them seem to point to the fact that the universe was static. This deception, which was discovered by another scientist, Alexander Friedmann, was what Einstein called: "the greatest blunder of my life".( From George Gamow, My World Line, 1970)

British cosmologist Arthur Eddington sympathized with Einstein. He stated: "Philosophically, the notion of a beginning of the present order of nature is repugnant to me...I should like to find a loophole."( Quoted in Hugh Ross, The Creator and the Cosmos, Colorado Springs: NavPress, 1995, 57)

Dutch astronomer Willem de Sitter and astronomer Edwin Hubble subsequently confirmed through observation that the universe indeed was expanding and that therefore the General Relativity of Einstein was true.

Lets look at some of the corroborating evidence.

1. The Second Law of Thermodynamics states among other things, that the universe is running out of usable energy. We experience it everyday when we drive our cars. We put fuel in the tank and as the engine runs, fuel is used. When the fuel runs out the engines shuts off. Unless fuel is put in the tank, the engine will not run. The universe is this way. One day it will run out of energy. Like a flashlight loses its power if left on overnight. Since the universe is using energy that it has, it must have had a beginning, if not, it would have been eternal, but if it had been eternal, it would have run out of usable energy. The second law is tied to the first which states that the total amount of energy in the universe is constant. In other words it has only a finite amount of energy.

The Law of Entropy is associated with this as well. This law states that over time, nature tends to bring things to disorder, not order. Cars rust, trees rot, clothes tear and wear out, human bodies age etc. etc.
If a wound up clock is running down, then someone must have wound it up. Agnostic astronomer Robert Jastrow likens the universe to such a wound up clock. (Robert Jastrow, God and the Astronomers, New York, Norton, 1978, 48)

Arthur Eddington understands all to well the implications of this and anyone who would attempt to refute the Second Law when he states:
"The law that entropy always increases, holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations — then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation — well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation." (Arthur Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World 1928, chapter 4)

2. The universe is expanding. The recent discoveries categorized in the "Big Bang" show us that the universe is expanding. Astronomer Edwin Hubble confirmed what astronomer Vesto Melvin Slipher had been researching in the early 1900's. That space itself is expanding is a scientifically proven fact confirmed by atheist British author Anthony Kenny. He wrote: " According to the Big Bang Theory, the whole matter of the universe began to exist at a particular time in the remote past. A proponent of such a theory, at least if he is an atheist, must believe that the matter of the universe came from nothing and by nothing. (Anthony Kenny, The Five Ways: St. Thomas Aquinas' Proofs of God's Existence, New York: Shocken, 1969, 66)

3. Radiation from the afterglow of the explosion of the Big Bang was detected in 1965 by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson of Bell Labs in New Jersey. This is technically called cosmic background radiation.
Agnostic Astronomer Robert Jastrow states: "No explanation other than the big bang has been found for the fireball radiation. The clincher, which has convinced almost the last Doubting Thomas, is that the radiation discovered by Penzias and Wilson has exactly the pattern of wavelengths expected for the light and heat produced in a great explosion. Supporters of the steady state theory have tried desperately to find an alternative explanation, but they have failed."(Robert Jastrow, God and the Astronomers, 15-16)

4. Variations in the temperature of the cosmic background radiation which enable matter to come together by gravitational attraction into galaxies was discovered by COBE, a satellite that in 1992 startled the scientific world by showing that the explosion and expansion of the universe was precisely tweaked to cause just enough matter to congregate to allow galaxy formation, but not enough to cause the universe to collapse back on itself. Any slight variation one way or the other, and none of us would be here to tell about it. In fact, the ripples are so exact (down to one part in one hundred thousand) that astronomer George Smoot called them the "machining marks from the creation of the universe" and the "finger-prints of the maker."(Heeren, Show Me God, 168)

Stephen Hawking says of this discovery that it is: "the most important discovery of the century, if not all time."(See Fred Heeren, Show Me God, 163-168; and Ross, Creator and the Cosmos, 19)

George Smoot again states with regards to these findings: "If you're religious, it's like looking at God."(See Fred Heeren, Show Me God, 163-168; and Ross, Creator and the Cosmos, 19)

Astrophysicist Michael Turner claims: "The significance of this cannot be overstated. They have found the Holy Grail of Cosmology."(See Fred Heeren, Show Me God, 163-168; and Ross, Creator and the Cosmos, 19)

The infrared pictures taken by COBE point to the existence of matter from the very early universe that would ultimately form into the galaxies as they exist today. Smoot called this matter "seeds". Pictures of these Galaxy Seeds can be found at COBE's website: http://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/

These "seeds" are the largest structures ever detected, with the biggest extending across 1/3 of the known universe. That is approximately 10,000,000,000 light years across!

5. Einstein's General Relativity has been verified to an accuracy of five decimal places. General Relativity demands an absolute beginning for time, space, and matter and shows that the three are co-relative.
Before speaking of the conclusion of the Cosmological argument, let us take a look at some of the views of scientists today on the beginning of the universe.

You seem to have missed half of my question. I will just ask a new one. How do you know god exists? How do you know god did not begin to exist? How does it make sense for something to exist if it did not begin to exist?

If you really know this, I am really interested in knowing too.

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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01-06-2014, 08:23 AM (This post was last modified: 01-06-2014 08:26 AM by cjlr.)
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 07:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  i know the unvierse began to exist because it is impossible to traverse an actually infinite number of past events...

No. That is an idiotic fallacy.

(01-06-2014 07:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ... and i know the universe began to exist because the empirical data we have tells us it did.

No.
(and all your copypasta does nothing to hide your own ignorance)

Conditions as we know them began at a certain period. Nothing further may be inferred.
(well, not by those with any shreds of intellectual honesty, at least)

(01-06-2014 07:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Dutch astronomer Willem de Sitter and astronomer Edwin Hubble subsequently confirmed through observation that the universe indeed was expanding and that therefore the General Relativity of Einstein was true.

Critical failure.

That is not what demonstrated Relativity. Thanks for playing!

(01-06-2014 07:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Lets look at some of the corroborating evidence.

1. The Second Law of Thermodynamics states among other things, that the universe is running out of usable energy. We experience it everyday when we drive our cars. We put fuel in the tank and as the engine runs, fuel is used. When the fuel runs out the engines shuts off. Unless fuel is put in the tank, the engine will not run. The universe is this way. One day it will run out of energy. Like a flashlight loses its power if left on overnight. Since the universe is using energy that it has, it must have had a beginning, if not, it would have been eternal, but if it had been eternal, it would have run out of usable energy. The second law is tied to the first which states that the total amount of energy in the universe is constant. In other words it has only a finite amount of energy.

Nope - failtacular.

The net energy of the universe is fixed. Conditions as we know them began at a certain period. Nothing further may be inferred.

(incidentally we know that zero-energy fluctuations are ubiquitous and inevitable - so much for "cause" and "nothing" as absolutes! not that you've even pretended to try to define a single concept coherently...)

(01-06-2014 07:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The Law of Entropy is associated with this as well. This law states that over time, nature tends to bring things to disorder, not order. Cars rust, trees rot, clothes tear and wear out, human bodies age etc. etc.
If a wound up clock is running down, then someone must have wound it up. Agnostic astronomer Robert Jastrow likens the universe to such a wound up clock. (Robert Jastrow, God and the Astronomers, New York, Norton, 1978, 48)

This is a trivial restatement of the second law of thermodynamics - and if you were scientifically literate, you'd know why.

But since your knowledge of cosmology consists only of copypasta from theistic masturbation almost as intellectually void as you...

(01-06-2014 07:40 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  a whole bunch of irrelevant copypasta

Yes. Conditions as we know them began to exist at a certain period.

Nothing further may be inferred.

... this is my signature!
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01-06-2014, 08:50 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
I feel like you cats are playing in the litter box with that one. Oh, and speaking of cats...

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01-06-2014, 09:04 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 07:43 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  God would have to be caring and concerned about us. If not, He would not be God.

The Greatest Conceivable Being exists necessarily and is unparalleled in Goodness, Power, and Knowledge.

I see. I can "imagine" a deity that didn't let millions of babies starve every year. Oops. Your deity have a nice way of showing it's care and concern.
Fucking idiot.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-06-2014, 09:04 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 01:01 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Here is the thing we don't know the universe is not eternal. We know that in this form it had a beginning but there is no way to tell what happened before the Big Bang and whether there is a cycle to it.


That is definitely special pleading. But the simple mechanics of "Act" require spacetime to be coherent and as spacetime is a phenomenon contained within the universe someone outside it could not interact without being inside the universe. Once inside the universe that subject would become bound by all the laws of said universe.

any universe that is on average, in a state of expansion, cannot be eternal in the past. this has already been proven.

our universe is in a state of expansion and therefore cannot be eternal in the past.


come on science boys and girls, this should be your area of expertise.

No... Thats not neccesarily true. And if it is, citation needed.

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01-06-2014, 09:10 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
[Image: cat2.jpg]

#sigh
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01-06-2014, 09:16 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
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