I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
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31-05-2014, 12:22 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:17 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 11:51 AM)catgoblin Wrote:  I'm new here, so I'm sorry if this has already been covered, but has anyone read this book?
[Image: 41iOxFVRGtL.jpg]

http://www.amazon.com/Enough-Faith-Athei...4H2JQ2QN36


My dad (a minister) sent this to me and I promised to read it Drinking Beverage

I'm about 1/3 of the way through and am pretty mystified--not sure what to think (not that I'm close to being reconverted to Christianity)

I wasn't familiar with the Cosmological or Kalam Cosmological Argument before I read this book. From my perspective, it seems pretty easy to dismiss this defending the God of the Bible, but what about a deistic God? The best thing I've thought of (so far) is that the assumption that the universe needing a sentient creator is unnecessarily complex, but from a teleological perspective, I don't see that going over very well.

I'm anticipating a pretty lengthy debate with my dad when I finish this, so I'd like to gather all the ammunition I can before then Wink

The book was written by Christians for Christians so they could feel smug about it.

There's a YouTube guy to took apart the book chapter by chapter. It was a great series to watch. I wish I could recall his name....

I think the series is called 'an atheist reads..'

Someone here, EvolutionKills? Help!




(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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31-05-2014, 12:22 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:09 PM)One Above All Wrote:  The cosmological argument is a special pleading fallacy. It becomes obvious if you phrase the argument thusly (and note that this is the argument; I have not altered it):

Everything that exists came from something.
The Universe exists.
Therefore the Universe came from something that was not created.

You see, by their own logic, their (theists who use this argument) god was created. And the god that created it. And the god that created the god that created it. And so on ad infinitum. Either that or their god does not exist. Which one do you think is more likely? An infinite series of increasingly powerful deities, or no deities?


Let me just end with this:
I have never seen or heard about one argument for the existence of any god that wasn't fallacious in some way or irrational. In fact, I recently challenged any and all theists on WWGHA to provide one such argument. It was more of an attempt to make them think, but one theist answered. Long story short, he failed. Badly.

Thanks for the response, but as I understand it, this only addresses the Cosmological Argument, not the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which states that everything that ends had a beginning and everything with a beginning had a creator. It relies on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that the usable energy in the universe is depleting, therefore the universe will eventually end/die (according to the book).

So, God, who exists outside of time and has no beginning or ending, needed no creator.

But the universe, which will end, had a beginning, so had to have been created.
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31-05-2014, 12:25 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:22 PM)catgoblin Wrote:  Thanks for the response, but as I understand it, this only addresses the Cosmological Argument, not the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which states that everything that ends had a beginning and everything with a beginning had a creator. It relies on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that the usable energy in the universe is depleting, therefore the universe will eventually end/die (according to the book).

So, God, who exists outside of time and has no beginning or ending, needed no creator.

But the universe, which will end, had a beginning, so had to have been created.

that is correct!
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31-05-2014, 12:25 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
Jeremy, from now on, you are on my ignore list.... Every thread you enter you try to derail.

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31-05-2014, 12:28 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:22 PM)catgoblin Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:09 PM)One Above All Wrote:  The cosmological argument is a special pleading fallacy. It becomes obvious if you phrase the argument thusly (and note that this is the argument; I have not altered it):

Everything that exists came from something.
The Universe exists.
Therefore the Universe came from something that was not created.

You see, by their own logic, their (theists who use this argument) god was created. And the god that created it. And the god that created the god that created it. And so on ad infinitum. Either that or their god does not exist. Which one do you think is more likely? An infinite series of increasingly powerful deities, or no deities?


Let me just end with this:
I have never seen or heard about one argument for the existence of any god that wasn't fallacious in some way or irrational. In fact, I recently challenged any and all theists on WWGHA to provide one such argument. It was more of an attempt to make them think, but one theist answered. Long story short, he failed. Badly.

Thanks for the response, but as I understand it, this only addresses the Cosmological Argument, not the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which states that everything that ends had a beginning and everything with a beginning had a creator. It relies on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that the usable energy in the universe is depleting, therefore the universe will eventually end/die (according to the book).

So, God, who exists outside of time and has no beginning or ending, needed no creator.

But the universe, which will end, had a beginning, so had to have been created.

Yes that is called special pleading and is fallacious. BTW the term "outside of time" is meaningless as acting requires time.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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31-05-2014, 12:29 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:25 PM)Sam Wrote:  Jeremy, from now on, you are on my ignore list.... Every thread you enter you try to derail.

Hey, I've been trying to return the favor. Wink

For some reason he doesnt like it.... hmmm Consider

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31-05-2014, 12:31 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:29 PM)War Horse Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:25 PM)Sam Wrote:  Jeremy, from now on, you are on my ignore list.... Every thread you enter you try to derail.

Hey, I've been trying to return the favor. Wink

For some reason he doesnt like it.... hmmm Consider

Its amazing how peaceful it is now... His posts don't show up. Its great.

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31-05-2014, 12:31 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:22 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:17 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  The book was written by Christians for Christians so they could feel smug about it.

There's a YouTube guy to took apart the book chapter by chapter. It was a great series to watch. I wish I could recall his name....

I think the series is called 'an atheist reads..'

Someone here, EvolutionKills? Help!




at the 7 minute mark he strawman's Craig's view of the relationship between evidence and faith.

Should I watch more?
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31-05-2014, 12:32 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:16 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 11:51 AM)catgoblin Wrote:  I'm new here, so I'm sorry if this has already been covered, but has anyone read this book?
[Image: 41iOxFVRGtL.jpg]

http://www.amazon.com/Enough-Faith-Athei...4H2JQ2QN36


My dad (a minister) sent this to me and I promised to read it Drinking Beverage

I'm about 1/3 of the way through and am pretty mystified--not sure what to think (not that I'm close to being reconverted to Christianity)

I wasn't familiar with the Cosmological or Kalam Cosmological Argument before I read this book. From my perspective, it seems pretty easy to dismiss this defending the God of the Bible, but what about a deistic God? The best thing I've thought of (so far) is that the assumption that the universe needing a sentient creator is unnecessarily complex, but from a teleological perspective, I don't see that going over very well.

I'm anticipating a pretty lengthy debate with my dad when I finish this, so I'd like to gather all the ammunition I can before then Wink

The KCA has been utterly destroyed many many times by examining it's presuppositions. The first place it fails is in it's lack of definitions because it changes them from 1 statement to the next to try and squeeze God into the gap. At the start require a precise definition of all the terminology and then hold them to that.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...l-Argument

There is a debate on this very subject where the KCA advocate fled in terror from the arena. He was unable to give even baseline definitions to his phrases because KLA requires you to flip meanings halfway through.

It is also subject to the infinite regression problem. All things that exist (a meaningless statement) must have a creator. God exists therefore must have a creator and that creator must have a creator. They try and get by this with the special pleading fallacy that says "No god is exempt from the rule" which of course means the universe itself could be exempt and thus renders the entire argument moot.

(31-05-2014 12:22 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:17 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  The book was written by Christians for Christians so they could feel smug about it.

There's a YouTube guy to took apart the book chapter by chapter. It was a great series to watch. I wish I could recall his name....

I think the series is called 'an atheist reads..'

Someone here, EvolutionKills? Help!





Hey thanks!

As I said, I don't think the infinite regress problem applies to the KCA, but I will definitely watch this video series. Big Grin

You're awesome.
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31-05-2014, 12:33 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:22 PM)catgoblin Wrote:  Thanks for the response, but as I understand it, this only addresses the Cosmological Argument, not the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which states that everything that ends had a beginning and everything with a beginning had a creator. It relies on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that the usable energy in the universe is depleting, therefore the universe will eventually end/die (according to the book).

So, God, who exists outside of time and has no beginning or ending, needed no creator.

But the universe, which will end, had a beginning, so had to have been created.

Yes that is called special pleading and is fallacious. BTW the term "outside of time" is meaningless as acting requires time.

it cannot be special pleading if you claim the universe is eternal and needs no creator.

no apologist has to claims God acted "outside of time" when creating the universe. this is a strawman.
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