I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
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01-06-2014, 05:02 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 04:56 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(01-06-2014 04:53 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  nice, but I disagree. I think you have strawmanned faith

Define religious faith then.

“faith” may be taken to mean the act of believing. According to the Protestant Reformer Martin Luther, faith in this sense has three components. First, there is notitia, or understanding. That is, one must understand the truth claim being made. Second, there is assensus, or assent. One must accept intellectually that the claim is, in fact, true. One not only understands it; he assents to it or agrees with it. Finally, there is fiducia, or trust. Saving faith involves not merely intellectual assent to some doctrines but a whole-hearted commitment or trust in God, about whom the claims are made. To say that Christian faith is reasonable in this sense is to say that believing in the God of the Bible is a rational thing for a person to do. To take the step of faith is a reasonable step for an intelligent and informed person.

Contrary to all the angry and vociferous proponents of the so-called “New Atheism,” I’m convinced that Christian faith, so understood, is eminently reasonable.

For any faith to be reasonable it will have to be logically consistent and fit the facts of experience, whether these be scientific, historical, or whatever. Such systematic consistency, as it has been called, is only a necessary condition for the truth of a worldview, but it may be a sufficient condition as well for its reasonableness. For determining its truth one will need in addition either sound, non-question-begging arguments based on premises more plausible than their negations or else a way of knowing its truth in a properly basic way. I have argued that Christianity, in contrast to other faiths I’m familiar with, has both.

So who decides which faith is or isn’t reasonable? Well, obviously, you do! Each of us does. As Pascal said, the game is already in play; you must lay a bet. How will you choose?

Now in saying that you must decide, I in no way imply that the truth is determined by your choice. If you’re lost hiking in the mountains and must choose which prong of a fork in the trail to take, that wouldn’t imply that your choice determines which path will lead you to safety. On the contrary, which is the true path is already determined by the facts. But it is up to us to weigh the facts and so to make this momentous choice, often in deep anxiety and uncertainty.

But as Christians we know that no one is truly alone in making the choice to believe in the Gospel. For God has sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world and to draw people to Himself. Jesus has promised that “If any man’s will is to do God’s will, he will know whether my teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority" (John 7. 17). Ultimately, it will be God Himself who will judge whether a person in his historical circumstances made a rational decision.



Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/what-is-r...z33QoHWTDU
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01-06-2014, 05:03 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:06 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 11:51 AM)catgoblin Wrote:  I'm new here, so I'm sorry if this has already been covered, but has anyone read this book?
[Image: 41iOxFVRGtL.jpg]

http://www.amazon.com/Enough-Faith-Athei...4H2JQ2QN36


My dad (a minister) sent this to me and I promised to read it Drinking Beverage

I'm about 1/3 of the way through and am pretty mystified--not sure what to think (not that I'm close to being reconverted to Christianity)

I wasn't familiar with the Cosmological or Kalam Cosmological Argument before I read this book. From my perspective, it seems pretty easy to dismiss this defending the God of the Bible, but what about a deistic God? The best thing I've thought of (so far) is that the assumption that the universe needing a sentient creator is unnecessarily complex, but from a teleological perspective, I don't see that going over very well.

I'm anticipating a pretty lengthy debate with my dad when I finish this, so I'd like to gather all the ammunition I can before then Wink

I read it. I agree with most of what is written within it. It requires blind faith to be an atheist.

or rather let me rephrase that:

in order to be an atheist, one must believe certain things that are simply not rationally defensible.

Atheists don't need faith (the belief in something without evidence) we have reason and logic.

Science is the antithesis of faith. Science is a process that contains multiple and redundant checks, balances, and safeguards against human bias and error. Science has a built in corrective mechanism..hypothesis testing...that weeds out false claims. Claims that come about as a result of a scientific process are held as tentatively true by scientists..unlike claims of faith that are held as eternally true with zero evidence. Related to this, claims that come about as a result of a scientific process are falsifiable, that is, there is a way to show the claims are false. This is not the case with faith claims. For example, there's no way to falisify the claim that the norse god Loki was able ot assume other forms.

Scientists try to prove claims false (falsification), unlike faith leaders who unequivocally state their faith claims are true. If a scientist can demonstrate that a popular scientific claim is false, he or she can become famous, get tenure, publish books, earn more money and become respected by her or his peers. If a preacher states that the claims of his faith tradition are false, he's excommunicated, defrocked or otherwise forced to abandon his position...the stifling of growth and enlightenment basically.

Science is a method for advancing our understanding. It is process we can use to bring us closer to the truth, and to weed out false claims. Science thus is the best way we've currently found to explain and understand how the universe works...unlike the religious leaders who base it on a superstitious fictional book put together and sold to the masses. greatest scam ever pulled on mankind.

If a belief is based on insufficient evidence, than any further conclusion drawn from the belief will at best be of questionable value. This can not point one to the path of truth.

You are at a distinct disadvantage, you believe in a fairy tale, a fairy tale based on a discredited, easily dismantled and disproven fictional book, filled with allegorical writings by communities of followers who penned them under more known author's names, pseudipigrapha by definition. Now if you wanted to discuss the philosophical theories of god then that would be a different, albeit subjective discussion, but if you cling to the bible as argument from authority, then you are beyond help. the world isn't flat, there isn't enough water on or in the planet to flood the world as per the mythical global flood that never happened, and jesus christ super star the miracle performing zombie didnt exist either as all writings of him were penned after his death by people who never witnessed the alleged events. Seek knowledge, it will help you with your 'faith".

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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01-06-2014, 05:03 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 04:56 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(01-06-2014 04:50 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  Probably because I am programming at the same time as debating you. If you think I have left out something critically important then just quote it and state your objection rather than try to create an impression. This is typical of you and it is why people see you as intellectually dishonest.

*without justifying the exception.*

I don't see that it makes any difference to what I said. I'll quote it here and add it in in bold if it makes you happy.

(01-06-2014 04:40 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(01-06-2014 04:30 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  We shouldn’t think of God as literally made out of energy, Doctor. For energy is a physical reality.

Special pleading (attempting to cite something as an exception to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exception)



(01-06-2014 04:56 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  God is the exception because God is Spirit, He is not a material being. He is immaterial.

The Kalam is one of my evidences for this assertion. The Bible is another.

That's not adequate evidence for justifying the exception. The Kalam is a flawed argument which has been repeated by you ad nauseam and refuted each time. The Bible is demonstrably scientifically and historically inaccurate.
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01-06-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 04:57 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Jeremy.....how do you know god is exists and how is it possible for it to exist without beginning to exist?

And what is the evidence that you said I've been given?

i have a living loving relationship with God that is how I know He exists.

This evidence i speak of is that the cause of the universe is more plausibly God.
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01-06-2014, 05:07 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 05:03 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(01-06-2014 04:56 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  *without justifying the exception.*

I don't see that it makes any difference to what I said. I'll quote it here and add it in in bold if it makes you happy.

(01-06-2014 04:40 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  Special pleading (attempting to cite something as an exception to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exception)



(01-06-2014 04:56 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  God is the exception because God is Spirit, He is not a material being. He is immaterial.

The Kalam is one of my evidences for this assertion. The Bible is another.

That's not adequate evidence for justifying the exception. The Kalam is a flawed argument which has been repeated by you ad nauseam and refuted each time. The Bible is demonstrably scientifically and historically inaccurate.

it is not flawed Doctor. you saying it is so does not make it so. and it may not be adequate for you even if you thought it was flawless. i doubt you would become a theist by agreeing with the conclusion of an argument for the existence of God.
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01-06-2014, 05:07 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 04:31 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(01-06-2014 04:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No one cares what you believe.

What does "God is Spirit" mean, exactly ?
Does your god "exist" ?
If so, define "existence", (a part of Reality, which, apparently had to be in place, concurrently with your deity), and in doing so, use no term which references spacetime.
Take your time.

i have some evidence for the existence of God. I can PM you it if you like and let you take a look at it.

I'll take that to mean you can't answer the questions.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-06-2014, 05:07 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 05:05 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(01-06-2014 04:57 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Jeremy.....how do you know god is exists and how is it possible for it to exist without beginning to exist?

And what is the evidence that you said I've been given?

i have a living loving relationship with God that is how I know He exists.

This evidence i speak of is that the cause of the universe is more plausibly God.

Don't you and your imaginary friend have something better to do? It's okay if you go blather at other people. We won't mind, really. You are free to go.

I'll show you the door...

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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01-06-2014, 05:10 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 05:07 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(01-06-2014 05:05 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  i have a living loving relationship with God that is how I know He exists.

This evidence i speak of is that the cause of the universe is more plausibly God.

Don't you and your imaginary friend have something better to do? It's okay if you go blather at other people. We won't mind, really. You are free to go.

I'll show you the door...

if you are offended then ignore me or do not read my posts.
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01-06-2014, 05:10 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 05:05 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(01-06-2014 04:57 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Jeremy.....how do you know god is exists and how is it possible for it to exist without beginning to exist?

And what is the evidence that you said I've been given?

i have a living loving relationship with God that is how I know He exists.

This evidence i speak of is that the cause of the universe is more plausibly God.

Faith IS the delusion, belief without evidence. Faith is pretending to know things that you dont know. To say "I have faith in god" really means "I pretend to know things I don't know about god"....to say "I have a living loving relationship with god" really means, "I have a delusional belief in the imaginary, for which I hope it is true, but know there is zero evidence to support it, but I will have faith in my delusion anyway"...THINK about it, you dont know, you HOPE.

provide proof that the cause of the universe is god.....just because we don't know the answer, doesn't mean we have to make shit up to fill in the gaps. I posit the maker of the universe is the mighty purple unicorn who resides inside the hollow planet Venus, sitting beside the FSM.

Creationist base their belief on faith, which is something that lacks evidence. atheist base their non belief on evidence, which is something that doesn't require faith.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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01-06-2014, 05:11 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(01-06-2014 05:07 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  it is not flawed Doctor. you saying it is so does not make it so.

If the Kalam Cosmological argument is not flawed then how come you've never managed to argue against any multitude of ways in which it can be refuted?
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