I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
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31-05-2014, 01:01 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:36 PM)catgoblin Wrote:  I realize this can technically be called special pleading, but since so little is known about the beginning of the universe, that seems like a weak argument to me. (I could be wrong...?)

Here is the thing we don't know the universe is not eternal. We know that in this form it had a beginning but there is no way to tell what happened before the Big Bang and whether there is a cycle to it.

(31-05-2014 12:36 PM)catgoblin Wrote:  And, sure, "outside of time" is scientifically meaningless, since we cannot observe/study this state, but surely it has theoretical merit?

And acting as we know it requires time...but a Christian might say that only acting as we know it requires time and God acts in ways we cannot understand. Obviously, this is ridiculous, but I wonder what the best response to this is?

That is definitely special pleading. But the simple mechanics of "Act" require spacetime to be coherent and as spacetime is a phenomenon contained within the universe someone outside it could not interact without being inside the universe. Once inside the universe that subject would become bound by all the laws of said universe.

any universe that is on average, in a state of expansion, cannot be eternal in the past. this has already been proven.

our universe is in a state of expansion and therefore cannot be eternal in the past.

come on science boys and girls, this should be your area of expertise.
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31-05-2014, 01:02 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 01:00 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 01:00 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  big bang.

check into it sometime.

What about it?

lol....

why is the standard model called the "standard model"?
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31-05-2014, 01:06 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 01:01 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  any universe that is on average, in a state of expansion, cannot be eternal in the past. this has already been proven.

Oh scientists have proved it have they?

[Citation required]
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31-05-2014, 01:07 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:22 PM)catgoblin Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:09 PM)One Above All Wrote:  The cosmological argument is a special pleading fallacy. It becomes obvious if you phrase the argument thusly (and note that this is the argument; I have not altered it):

Everything that exists came from something.
The Universe exists.
Therefore the Universe came from something that was not created.

You see, by their own logic, their (theists who use this argument) god was created. And the god that created it. And the god that created the god that created it. And so on ad infinitum. Either that or their god does not exist. Which one do you think is more likely? An infinite series of increasingly powerful deities, or no deities?


Let me just end with this:
I have never seen or heard about one argument for the existence of any god that wasn't fallacious in some way or irrational. In fact, I recently challenged any and all theists on WWGHA to provide one such argument. It was more of an attempt to make them think, but one theist answered. Long story short, he failed. Badly.

Thanks for the response, but as I understand it, this only addresses the Cosmological Argument, not the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which states that everything that ends had a beginning and everything with a beginning had a creator. It relies on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that the usable energy in the universe is depleting, therefore the universe will eventually end/die (according to the book).

So, God, who exists outside of time and has no beginning or ending, needed no creator.

But the universe, which will end, had a beginning, so had to have been created.

From your description, I fail to see the difference between Kal and non-Kal Cosmological arguments. It just adds an 'ends' to the premise and conclusion... The basic idea is still the same: The need of a creator at the beginning.

I find the addition of god being outside of time and space and therefore having no begging or ended to be flawed: In so far as we can reasonably guess, to be outside of time and space is to effectively be outside of all causality from the off-set. Which begs the question of how something outside of it caused anything.
Additionally, to exist, a thing must occupy a bit of space and time, again, at least as far as we understand it now. God is, by the argument, an existing entity capable of acting, as shown through it's pre-supposed creation of the universe.

Because it is supposed to exist, and have acted, we know that it does occupy a space within time, and thus is not exempt from having a beginning or end and needing a creator (by the argument).

Either the hypothetical deity doesn't exist, or it it turtles all the way down.

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31-05-2014, 01:08 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 01:02 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 01:00 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  What about it?

lol....

why is the standard model called the "standard model"?

lol....

Why do you just leave vague statements hanging in the air without standing by what you say and making proper assertions?

This is why everything sees you as intellectually dishonest.

So come on then, explain why the Big Bang disproves my argument.
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31-05-2014, 01:15 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 01:06 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 01:01 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  any universe that is on average, in a state of expansion, cannot be eternal in the past. this has already been proven.

Oh scientists have proved it have they?

[Citation required]

In 2003, three leading cosmologists, Arvin Borde, Alan Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin, were able to prove that any universe which has, on average, been expanding throughout its history cannot be infinite in the past but must have a past space-time boundary.

http://arxiv.org/abs/grqc/0110012
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31-05-2014, 01:15 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:22 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:17 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  The book was written by Christians for Christians so they could feel smug about it.

There's a YouTube guy to took apart the book chapter by chapter. It was a great series to watch. I wish I could recall his name....

I think the series is called 'an atheist reads..'

Someone here, EvolutionKills? Help!




That's him!!!!! Thank you, thank you Revs!!!


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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31-05-2014, 01:17 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 01:07 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:22 PM)catgoblin Wrote:  Thanks for the response, but as I understand it, this only addresses the Cosmological Argument, not the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which states that everything that ends had a beginning and everything with a beginning had a creator. It relies on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that the usable energy in the universe is depleting, therefore the universe will eventually end/die (according to the book).

So, God, who exists outside of time and has no beginning or ending, needed no creator.

But the universe, which will end, had a beginning, so had to have been created.

From your description, I fail to see the difference between Kal and non-Kal Cosmological arguments. It just adds an 'ends' to the premise and conclusion... The basic idea is still the same: The need of a creator at the beginning.

I find the addition of god being outside of time and space and therefore having no begging or ended to be flawed: In so far as we can reasonably guess, to be outside of time and space is to effectively be outside of all causality from the off-set. Which begs the question of how something outside of it caused anything.
Additionally, to exist, a thing must occupy a bit of space and time, again, at least as far as we understand it now. God is, by the argument, an existing entity capable of acting, as shown through it's pre-supposed creation of the universe.

Because it is supposed to exist, and have acted, we know that it does occupy a space within time, and thus is not exempt from having a beginning or end and needing a creator (by the argument).

Either the hypothetical deity doesn't exist, or it it turtles all the way down.

ok

either something outside the universe brought it into existence

or

the universe just popped into existence uncaused out of nothing.


take your pick and no it is not a false dichotomy because the universe is not eternal in the past.
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31-05-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:20 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:12 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Fixed that for you.

an atheist is one that does not believe in God. so no, this is not facetious, caricatured, or deliberate misunderstanding.

Oh, you poor child.

We both know that that is not how you define the term.

... this is my signature!
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31-05-2014, 01:20 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 01:19 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:20 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  an atheist is one that does not believe in God. so no, this is not facetious, caricatured, or deliberate misunderstanding.

Oh, you poor child.

We both know that that is not how you define the term.

lol, i just defined it that way.
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