I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
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02-06-2014, 09:48 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 09:22 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 08:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  The universe came about by natural but not as yet known causes Gwyneth Paltrow. You just can't grasp "we don't know" in your childish mind, can you. Drinking Beverage

All betterz!

Oh, and...

Yabut Gwyneth is on the shit list again in the news, if she keeps it up, somebody's gonna boot her ass outta the universe. Consider

If bullshit were music some people would be a brass band.
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02-06-2014, 10:14 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 08:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 08:29 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  an atheist that denies the existence of immaterial efficient causes must believe that either the universe has always existed, that the universe created itself, or that the universe came into being without a cause.

the first is indefensible by virtue of the empirical data against it, the second is self-contradictory, and the third is just absurd.

hence, one is irrational in maintaining any of them as being true.

The universe came about by natural but not as yet known causes. You just can't grasp "we don't know" in your childish mind, can you. Drinking Beverage

this is self-contradictory in that you say there is a natural explanation for all of nature coming into existence. this is nothing more than a re-phrasing of the second view I mentioned. The cause of the universe cannot be a natural mechanism for it would have had to exist before the universe existed. all matter all energy and the space-time manifold came into existence a finite time ago, thus there was nothing natural in existence prior to this coming into being of the universe.

if nothing natural was in existence prior to the coming into being of the natural world, then the explanation cannoy be a natural one. For nothing cannot create something. From nothing, nothing comes.
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02-06-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 10:14 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 08:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  The universe came about by natural but not as yet known causes. You just can't grasp "we don't know" in your childish mind, can you. Drinking Beverage

this is self-contradictory in that you say there is a natural explanation for all of nature coming into existence. this is nothing more than a re-phrasing of the second view I mentioned. The cause of the universe cannot be a natural mechanism for it would have had to exist before the universe existed. all matter all energy and the space-time manifold came into existence a finite time ago, thus there was nothing natural in existence prior to this coming into being of the universe.

if nothing natural was in existence prior to the coming into being of the natural world, then the explanation cannoy be a natural one. For nothing cannot create something. From nothing, nothing comes.

You are assuming, at the very same time, that our universe is all there is AND that there is the universe and God.

Your mind doesn't work very well. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-06-2014, 10:29 AM
I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 10:14 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 08:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  The universe came about by natural but not as yet known causes. You just can't grasp "we don't know" in your childish mind, can you. Drinking Beverage

this is self-contradictory in that you say there is a natural explanation for all of nature coming into existence.

Equivocation attempting to use the colloquial definitions of "natural" and "supernatural" to define anything prior to the universe as "supernatural."

A singularity is not supernatural. It is composed of dense energy.

(02-06-2014 10:14 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  this is nothing more than a re-phrasing of the second view I mentioned. The cause of the universe cannot be a natural mechanism for it would have had to exist before the universe existed. all matter all energy and the space-time manifold came into existence a finite time ago, thus there was nothing natural in existence prior to this coming into being of the universe.

Show how energy can be created or destroyed.

I think you're misunderstanding the lack of causality due to a lack of space time prior to the Big Bang. There's no reason to assume physics didn't apply in a pre Big Bang state, simply that they were different physics.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/crit...veneziano/

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“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
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02-06-2014, 10:30 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 10:20 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 10:14 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  this is self-contradictory in that you say there is a natural explanation for all of nature coming into existence. this is nothing more than a re-phrasing of the second view I mentioned. The cause of the universe cannot be a natural mechanism for it would have had to exist before the universe existed. all matter all energy and the space-time manifold came into existence a finite time ago, thus there was nothing natural in existence prior to this coming into being of the universe.

if nothing natural was in existence prior to the coming into being of the natural world, then the explanation cannoy be a natural one. For nothing cannot create something. From nothing, nothing comes.

You are assuming, at the very same time, that our universe is all there is AND that there is the universe and God.

Your mind doesn't work very well. Drinking Beverage

the universe is all of physical reality including the expanding space-time manifold. the universe is not expanding into open space but space itself is expanding.

there is an explanation for why this universe came to be in the first place. to say that well it just exists without an explanation is to undermine the entire cosmological endeavor of learning about the cosmos.

the explanation is more plausibly a transecdent creator.
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02-06-2014, 10:35 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
Why does the universe need a creator? Why do we need to speak of a "before" the universe? Perhaps there was no "before" the universe. I only have a cursory knowledge of modern physics so I can't say. But why does there need to be a God? From what I understand I see no reason for one to be necessary.
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02-06-2014, 10:45 AM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2014 10:48 AM by rampant.a.i..)
I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
That's your opinion. No complex, conscious, omnipotent entity that existed eternally prior to any reason for conscious thought to be useful in any way is a far more convoluted and nonsensical than anything supported by physics, and is simply lazy thinking.

The reason physics exists as a discipline is "dunno, God did it" is not a satisfactory answer.

The physicists who developed the theories you're basing your arguments on don't even believe that, so once again:

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“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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02-06-2014, 11:16 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 10:30 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  the explanation is more plausibly a transecdent creator.

Or wizards, unicorns, or leprechauns. Or a transcendent universe that is eternal (you know, the same quality gods allegedly have). Or aliens in alternate dimensions that don't have time the same way we do.

You're seriously jumping from "we don't know" to "Gaaaaaaawwwwwd" because you want it to be God. You're unwillingness to entertain any other option taints the way you think about literally everything.
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02-06-2014, 11:22 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 08:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  The universe came about by natural but not as yet known causes. You just can't grasp "we don't know" in your childish mind, can you. Drinking Beverage

I say that to creationists all the time. It seems they just can't get it through their head that saying "I don't know, but let's try to find that answer" is far more mature than an attitude of "This is the right answer because this is what I was indoctrinated with! I have an answer and you don't, therefore I'm right!" By their logic, a bullshit answer is still better than having no answer. That is their defense.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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02-06-2014, 11:25 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 11:16 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  You're seriously jumping from "we don't know" to "Gaaaaaaawwwwwd" because you want it to be God. You're unwillingness to entertain any other option taints the way you think about literally everything.

... and at the same time ignoring all other arguments and evidence.

Not exactly rational.
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