I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
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02-06-2014, 11:46 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 10:30 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  the universe is all of physical reality
...that we know of

That's a very important part. This may be it. Or, there may be higher dimensions of space and/or time outside our universe.

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02-06-2014, 11:51 AM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 09:48 AM)War Horse Wrote:  Yabut Gwyneth is on the shit list again in the news, if she keeps it up, somebody's gonna boot her ass outta the universe. Consider

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02-06-2014, 12:13 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 10:30 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  the explanation is more plausibly a transecdent creator.

And then you make a huge leap and assume that this validates ancient, self-contradictory poetry as being absolutely, literaly true? Consider

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02-06-2014, 12:21 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 10:35 AM)natachan Wrote:  Why does the universe need a creator? Why do we need to speak of a "before" the universe? Perhaps there was no "before" the universe. I only have a cursory knowledge of modern physics so I can't say. But why does there need to be a God? From what I understand I see no reason for one to be necessary.

you dont have to be a physicist to understand that from nothing, nothing comes.

you act like i am speaking a foreign language. that I am saying something so bizarre as to be unbelievable and unintelligible.

if you were taking a walk and came across a translucent ball lying on the ground, one of such a type that you had never seen before, it would be absurd for you to say: "well gee! i dont know how this got here! it must have just popped into existence without a cause from nothing!"

it would be just as absurd to say that the ball just exists, without an explanation.

but what if the ball were the size of a house? would the fact that it is larger in any way lessen the need for an explanation? no.

what if the ball were the size of the earth or the sun or our galaxy?

merely increasing the size of the object in question in no way diminshes the need for an explanation.

i find it fascinating that Moses writing thousands of years ago began with:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. In Hebrew the last phrase heavens and earth literally means universe.

up until the early part of the twentieth century, philosophers thought of the universe as eternal and uncaused.

Moses somehow knew what we are just recently coming to know i.e. that there was an absolute beginning of the universe.

Moses knew this and had no telescopes nor any of the things we have today at our disposal.

He knew thousands of years before Christ what scientists are just recently confirming.


I find that fascinating.
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02-06-2014, 12:22 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
Jeremy do you realize Yahveh is the god of war? Thumbsup
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02-06-2014, 12:23 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 10:35 AM)natachan Wrote:  Why does the universe need a creator? Why do we need to speak of a "before" the universe? Perhaps there was no "before" the universe. I only have a cursory knowledge of modern physics so I can't say. But why does there need to be a God? From what I understand I see no reason for one to be necessary.

you dont have to be a physicist to understand that from nothing, nothing comes.

you act like i am speaking a foreign language. that I am saying something so bizarre as to be unbelievable and unintelligible.

if you were taking a walk and came across a translucent ball lying on the ground, one of such a type that you had never seen before, it would be absurd for you to say: "well gee! i dont know how this got here! it must have just popped into existence without a cause from nothing!"

it would be just as absurd to say that the ball just exists, without an explanation.

but what if the ball were the size of a house? would the fact that it is larger in any way lessen the need for an explanation? no.

what if the ball were the size of the earth or the sun or our galaxy?

merely increasing the size of the object in question in no way diminshes the need for an explanation.

i find it fascinating that Moses writing thousands of years ago began with:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. In Hebrew the last phrase heavens and earth literally means universe.

up until the early part of the twentieth century, philosophers thought of the universe as eternal and uncaused.

Moses somehow knew what we are just recently coming to know i.e. that there was an absolute beginning of the universe.

Moses knew this and had no telescopes nor any of the things we have today at our disposal.

He knew thousands of years before Christ what scientists are just recently confirming.


I find that fascinating.
I find that horse shit.
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02-06-2014, 12:23 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 10:35 AM)natachan Wrote:  Why does the universe need a creator? Why do we need to speak of a "before" the universe? Perhaps there was no "before" the universe. I only have a cursory knowledge of modern physics so I can't say. But why does there need to be a God? From what I understand I see no reason for one to be necessary.

you dont have to be a physicist to understand that from nothing, nothing comes.

you act like i am speaking a foreign language. that I am saying something so bizarre as to be unbelievable and unintelligible.

if you were taking a walk and came across a translucent ball lying on the ground, one of such a type that you had never seen before, it would be absurd for you to say: "well gee! i dont know how this got here! it must have just popped into existence without a cause from nothing!"

it would be just as absurd to say that the ball just exists, without an explanation.

but what if the ball were the size of a house? would the fact that it is larger in any way lessen the need for an explanation? no.

what if the ball were the size of the earth or the sun or our galaxy?

merely increasing the size of the object in question in no way diminshes the need for an explanation.

i find it fascinating that Moses writing thousands of years ago began with:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. In Hebrew the last phrase heavens and earth literally means universe.

up until the early part of the twentieth century, philosophers thought of the universe as eternal and uncaused.

Moses somehow knew what we are just recently coming to know i.e. that there was an absolute beginning of the universe.

Moses knew this and had no telescopes nor any of the things we have today at our disposal.

He knew thousands of years before Christ what scientists are just recently confirming.


I find that fascinating.

There was no Moses, he was myth. This is not in dispute in any legitimate academic centre.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-06-2014, 12:24 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  i find it fascinating that Moses writing thousands of years ago began with:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. In Hebrew the last phrase heavens and earth literally means universe.

up until the early part of the twentieth century, philosophers thought of the universe as eternal and uncaused.

Moses somehow knew what we are just recently coming to know i.e. that there was an absolute beginning of the universe.

Moses knew this and had no telescopes nor any of the things we have today at our disposal.

He knew thousands of years before Christ what scientists are just recently confirming.


I find that fascinating.

I've never heard this one before... Evidence please?

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02-06-2014, 12:37 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  you dont have to be a physicist to understand that from nothing, nothing comes.

Aaaaaand I suppose you can coherently define "nothing" in such a way as to preclude quantum fluctuations, eh?

Get right on that, Jeremy. I'll gladly read all about it when you clear the Physical Review editorial board.

(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  you act like i am speaking a foreign language. that I am saying something so bizarre as to be unbelievable and unintelligible.

Indeed; it's because you are speaking from such an irrational and nonsensical point of view that nothing sane may ever come from it.

(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  if you were taking a walk and came across a translucent ball lying on the ground, one of such a type that you had never seen before, it would be absurd for you to say: "well gee! i dont know how this got here! it must have just popped into existence without a cause from nothing!"

Equivocation and false choice. Nice try, though?

(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  it would be just as absurd to say that the ball just exists, without an explanation.

UNLESS THAT BALL WERE GAWD AMIRITE

(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  i find it fascinating that Moses writing thousands of years ago began with:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. In Hebrew the last phrase heavens and earth literally means universe.

Moses did not exist. Whoops!

(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  up until the early part of the twentieth century, philosophers thought of the universe as eternal and uncaused.

The vast majority of them were deistic at the very least - so, you know, the exact opposite of what you've just claimed.

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02-06-2014, 12:42 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 08:29 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 07:55 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What atheist beliefs are not rational?

And I'm going to stop you right now before you start over-defining atheism to be something that it isn't.


Edit: Holy balls. 45 pages in two days. Jeremy, I thought you were sticking around the boxing ring from now on. What happened?

an atheist that denies the existence of immaterial efficient causes must believe that either the universe has always existed, that the universe created itself, or that the universe came into being without a cause.

the first is indefensible by virtue of the empirical data against it, the second is self-contradictory, and the third is just absurd.

hence, one is irrational in maintaining any of them as being true.
It's irrational to maintain everything you believe ( your Christian cult) to be true.Yes
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