I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
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02-06-2014, 03:01 PM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2014 04:12 PM by rampant.a.i..)
I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  [quote='natachan' pid='585553' dateline='1401726907']
Why does the universe need a creator? Why do we need to speak of a "before" the universe? Perhaps there was no "before" the universe. I only have a cursory knowledge of modern physics so I can't say. But why does there need to be a God? From what I understand I see no reason for one to be necessary.

you dont have to be a physicist to understand that from nothing, nothing comes.[/quote]

You've been told at least 30 times this is a strawman, and more applicable to your own beliefs, where God came from nowhere, fully formed, and created the universe out of nothing.

Nothing in Big Bang theory says "Some singularity that came from nothing I guess."

Read Hawking's Brief History of Time. It's an easy read; I read it when I was 9. At least make a feeble attempt to understand the other side.

And at least as many times that on the quantum level, the level applying to the Big Bang, you're wrong.

(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  [quote='natachan' pid='585553' dateline='1401726907']you act like i am speaking a foreign language. that I am saying something so bizarre as to be unbelievable and unintelligible.

That's because you are. It's not that you're speaking a foreign language, it's as if there's a language barrier preventing you from absorbing information.

(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  f you were taking a walk and came across a translucent ball lying on the ground, one of such a type that you had never seen before, it would be absurd for you to say: "well gee! i dont know how this got here! it must have just popped into existence without a cause from nothing!"

it would be just as absurd to say that the ball just exists, without an explanation.

Correct. That's why your belief God has always existed without cause is nonsensical.

(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  but what if the ball were the size of a house? would the fact that it is larger in any way lessen the need for an explanation? no.

what if the ball were the size of the earth or the sun or our galaxy?

merely increasing the size of the object in question in no way diminshes the need for an explanation.

Sure. A true one, not an intellectually lazy one.

(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  i find it fascinating that Moses writing thousands of years ago began with:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. In Hebrew the last phrase heavens and earth literally means universe.

Hey, biblical expert. Moses didn't write anything in the new or Old Testament. Google it.

(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  up until the early part of the twentieth century, philosophers thought of the universe as eternal and uncaused.

Not all philosophers.

And definitely not the Hindus, or other eastern religious traditions predating Christianity that had developed trade routes into that part of the Middle East.

(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Moses somehow knew what we are just recently coming to know i.e. that there was an absolute beginning of the universe.

Moses knew this and had no telescopes nor any of the things we have today at our disposal.

He knew thousands of years before Christ what scientists are just recently confirming.


I find that fascinating.

Fucking African tribes knew the universe had a beginning thousands of years before migrating toward any part of the Middle East. Do you find that compelling? Are you going to start worshipping Bumbo?

http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-origin-of-...verse.html

The actual origin myth of universe creation comes from the Sumerians, the same people Christianity absorbed the myth of Noah's Flood, The Garden of Eden, among others. Not Moses.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_creation_myth

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/f...igins.html

You don't even know who wrote your holy books, or what their historical sources were?

Holy fuck.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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02-06-2014, 03:09 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 03:01 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Fucking African tribes knew the universe had a beginning thousands of years before migrating toward any part of the Middle East. Do you find that compelling? Are you going to start worshipping Bumbo?

I don't know about Germy Wanker but I sure as fuck am. I already pray to Bumba regularly. Big Grin

[Image: bumba2.jpg]

#sigh
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02-06-2014, 03:17 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
I find it odd that people think it's so amazing that the Hebrews knew the universe had a beginning.
Perhaps it's equally amazing that when I was a child I knew that Tasmanian Devels were real. Or maybe...... I just thought I knew and Just happened to guess correctly. I did have the tornado part wrong though.
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02-06-2014, 03:49 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 01:48 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  you dont have to be a physicist to understand that from nothing, nothing comes.

you act like i am speaking a foreign language. that I am saying something so bizarre as to be unbelievable and unintelligible.

Jesus Christ, Jeremy. Where does your god come from? Nothing? If God can violate your sacred law of "nothing comes from nothing", how do you know the universe can't violate it?

You're still jumping to stupid conclusions because you want to.

Who said God came from somewhere?

I certainly did not say that.
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02-06-2014, 03:51 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 03:49 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Who said God came from somewhere?

So why did the universe have to come from somewhere if God didn't?

How many times do we have to repeat ourselves??
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02-06-2014, 04:14 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 03:51 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 03:49 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Who said God came from somewhere?

So why did the universe have to come from somewhere if God didn't?

How many times do we have to repeat ourselves??

the evidence at our disposal indicates that the universe is not eternal in the past, but had a beginning a finite time ago. this means that the universe is a contingent entity.

the cause of the universe is one that must be able to bring about all of physical reality ex nihilo. the principle of parsimony (Ockham's Razor) enjoins us to posit as a cause, only that which sufficiently explains the data. hence we arrive at a powerful, immaterial, non-spatial, more plausibly personal efficient cause of the universe.

To reiterate:

Given Ockham's Razor, we are justified in positing only such causes as are necessary to explain the effect. Therefore it would be unjustified to postulate a plurality of causes.

The ball is now in your court: you have to give good reasons to think that timelessly existing entities must have causes—an assumption which is, as Daniel Dennett himself discerns, highly implausible and widely rejected by metaphysicians, whose ontologies often include uncaused, eternal entities like abstract objects.

In addition, in light of the success of the philosophical arguments against an infinite regress, we know that there must be a temporally first cause, which is therefore uncaused in the sense of having no temporally prior cause.

The argument against an actual infinite will necessitate that such a causal regress cannot be infinite and that one must therefore arrive at an absolutely uncaused first cause.
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02-06-2014, 04:16 PM
I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 03:51 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 03:49 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Who said God came from somewhere?

So why did the universe have to come from somewhere if God didn't?

How many times do we have to repeat ourselves??

http://youtu.be/jAX7cqMciJg

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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02-06-2014, 04:17 PM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2014 04:26 PM by rampant.a.i..)
I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 04:14 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 03:51 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  So why did the universe have to come from somewhere if God didn't?

How many times do we have to repeat ourselves??

the evidence at our disposal indicates that the universe is not eternal in the past, but had a beginning a finite time ago. this means that the universe is a contingent entity.

the cause of the universe is one that must be able to bring about all of physical reality ex nihilo. the principle of parsimony (Ockham's Razor) enjoins us to posit as a cause, only that which sufficiently explains the data. hence we arrive at a powerful, immaterial, non-spatial, more plausibly personal efficient cause of the universe.

To reiterate:

Given Ockham's Razor, we are justified in positing only such causes as are necessary to explain the effect. Therefore it would be unjustified to postulate a plurality of causes.

The ball is now in your court: you have to give good reasons to think that timelessly existing entities must have causes—an assumption which is, as Daniel Dennett himself discerns, highly implausible and widely rejected by metaphysicians, whose ontologies often include uncaused, eternal entities like abstract objects.

In addition, in light of the success of the philosophical arguments against an infinite regress, we know that there must be a temporally first cause, which is therefore uncaused in the sense of having no temporally prior cause.

The argument against an actual infinite will necessitate that such a causal regress cannot be infinite and that one must therefore arrive at an absolutely uncaused first cause.

Infinite regress is not a logical impossibility, nor is solving it a logical necessity.

In other words, if it occurs: Nothing happens. It doesn't cause a single problem.

As far as Ockham's Razor:

Quote:Occam's razor is a minimalist principle that originated in the medieval philosophical school Nominalism. The principle states that one should never make more assumptions or assume more causes than the minimum necessary to solve a problem or find a cause for something. It is named after the 14th century English philosopher and theologian William of Occam (or Ockham).
The following fact cannot be overstated: Occam's razor is a heuristic, not a proof.

An ad-hoc omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnitemporal, omniscient entity does not fit the bolded portion at all.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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02-06-2014, 04:24 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 04:14 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  the evidence at our disposal indicates that the universe is not eternal in the past, but had a beginning a finite time ago.

Wrong. We've been over this many times now.


(02-06-2014 04:14 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  the principle of parsimony (Ockham's Razor) enjoins us to posit as a cause, only that which sufficiently explains the data.

All the data.

I was waiting for Occam's razor to be brought up. Occam's razor tells us that there is no god and that the universe has always existed in one form or another.

This is because using God as an explanation brings up more questions than it solves and therefore is not the simplest solution. Questions which have been raised a multitude of times already and which you cannot answer. For example, what God is made of if not energy or matter and how it can interact with the world, how God can be omnipresent, omniscience and omnipotent, how an intelligent sentient being such as God can always exist.

  • Occams razor by the way is not evidence in itself which you said in a previous post but a technique.
  • By the way, there is no god.
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02-06-2014, 04:48 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
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