I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
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02-06-2014, 05:56 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 05:52 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 05:48 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  an infinite regress of explanations is a problem. if one needs an explanation for an explanation in order to recognize it as the best explanation for a given set of data, then you automatically embark on a never ending journey of explanation seeking.

a team of astronauts could land on mars and discover a pile of what appears to be ancient machine parts in a cave and have no idea where it came from, who made it, or how long it had been there or what it was for, but I guarantee you they would be killing each other to get back to the spaceship to tell the world that they had discovered evidence of some intelligent life. They recognize that that would be the best explanation even while knowing little to nothing about the machinery.

If they did what Mathilda is suggesting, they would just throw their hands up and say:

"Drats! I have a lot of questions, therefore I cannot say that this pile of machinery is more plausibly the handiwork of some intelligent life."


http://youtu.be/J---aiyznGQ

if I were to do what you are doing, I would be accused of video spamming and copying and pasting and not answering a person's posts.
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02-06-2014, 05:57 PM
I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 05:56 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 05:52 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  http://youtu.be/J---aiyznGQ

if I were to do what you are doing, I would be accused of video spamming and copying and pasting and not answering a person's posts.

You haven't answered the posts. The KCA has been debunked yet you continue to use it to argue from.

Ergo:

http://youtu.be/D6_6qg_iUyY

β€œIt is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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02-06-2014, 06:01 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:06 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 11:51 AM)catgoblin Wrote:  I'm new here, so I'm sorry if this has already been covered, but has anyone read this book?
[Image: 41iOxFVRGtL.jpg]

http://www.amazon.com/Enough-Faith-Athei...4H2JQ2QN36


My dad (a minister) sent this to me and I promised to read it Drinking Beverage

I'm about 1/3 of the way through and am pretty mystified--not sure what to think (not that I'm close to being reconverted to Christianity)

I wasn't familiar with the Cosmological or Kalam Cosmological Argument before I read this book. From my perspective, it seems pretty easy to dismiss this defending the God of the Bible, but what about a deistic God? The best thing I've thought of (so far) is that the assumption that the universe needing a sentient creator is unnecessarily complex, but from a teleological perspective, I don't see that going over very well.

I'm anticipating a pretty lengthy debate with my dad when I finish this, so I'd like to gather all the ammunition I can before then Wink

I read it. I agree with most of what is written within it. It requires blind faith to be an atheist.

or rather let me rephrase that:

in order to be an atheist, one must believe certain things that are simply not rationally defensible.


I aint reading all the pages of this, so I will just comment.

Blind faith?

Since WHEN is Atheism a faith? It is the exact opposite of faith. It is denial of the supernatural.

Hey kid, when your finished reading this book.


Hitchens 1:1 is all you need to say to your dad.

"what can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.- Christopher Hitchens"

Then walk away victorious.


My Youtube channel if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEkRdbq...rLEz-0jEHQ
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02-06-2014, 06:10 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 06:01 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:06 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I read it. I agree with most of what is written within it. It requires blind faith to be an atheist.

or rather let me rephrase that:

in order to be an atheist, one must believe certain things that are simply not rationally defensible.


I aint reading all the pages of this, so I will just comment.

Blind faith?

Since WHEN is Atheism a faith? It is the exact opposite of faith. It is denial of the supernatural.

Hey kid, when your finished reading this book.


Hitchens 1:1 is all you need to say to your dad.

"what can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.- Christopher Hitchens"

Then walk away victorious.

a skeptic in one set of beliefs is a true believer in another set of beliefs.

for example, some atheists believe that science will one day give us a natural explanation for the beginning of the cosmos. but this is a position of faith. not only that but it is manifestly absurd. There cannot be a natural explanation for the coming into existence of all of that which is natural i.e. the universe. To maintain it could is to seat yourself on a branch of the tree of naturalism and saw it off while you sit on it.

So those atheists that believe that science will one day give us a natural explanation of the cosmos are exercising faith in believing a self contradicting position.
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02-06-2014, 06:14 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 12:23 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  you dont have to be a physicist to understand that from nothing, nothing comes.

you act like i am speaking a foreign language. that I am saying something so bizarre as to be unbelievable and unintelligible.

if you were taking a walk and came across a translucent ball lying on the ground, one of such a type that you had never seen before, it would be absurd for you to say: "well gee! i dont know how this got here! it must have just popped into existence without a cause from nothing!"

it would be just as absurd to say that the ball just exists, without an explanation.

but what if the ball were the size of a house? would the fact that it is larger in any way lessen the need for an explanation? no.

what if the ball were the size of the earth or the sun or our galaxy?

merely increasing the size of the object in question in no way diminshes the need for an explanation.

i find it fascinating that Moses writing thousands of years ago began with:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. In Hebrew the last phrase heavens and earth literally means universe.

up until the early part of the twentieth century, philosophers thought of the universe as eternal and uncaused.

Moses somehow knew what we are just recently coming to know i.e. that there was an absolute beginning of the universe.

Moses knew this and had no telescopes nor any of the things we have today at our disposal.

He knew thousands of years before Christ what scientists are just recently confirming.


I find that fascinating.

There was no Moses, he was myth. This is not in dispute in any legitimate academic centre.

Jeremy conveniently forgets that the bible was written long after these magical events, including long after the made up moses guy....i.e. madeup. Reminds me how they try to say jesus was foretold in the OT, no, actually the NT was written in such a manner as to try to give it credibility by linking it with OT stories...duh Drooling

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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02-06-2014, 06:14 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 06:01 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:06 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I read it. I agree with most of what is written within it. It requires blind faith to be an atheist.

or rather let me rephrase that:

in order to be an atheist, one must believe certain things that are simply not rationally defensible.


I aint reading all the pages of this, so I will just comment.

Blind faith?

Since WHEN is Atheism a faith? It is the exact opposite of faith. It is denial of the supernatural.

Hey kid, when your finished reading this book.


Hitchens 1:1 is all you need to say to your dad.

"what can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.- Christopher Hitchens"

Then walk away victorious.

No way dude.
You have something a little screwy there.
Atheism deals with the premise that a god exists. It is disbelief of that premise.

There is a god!
I don't believe you. Prove it!

See? simple.

Plenty of atheists believe in ghosts or karma or reincarnation, all of which are supernatural in nature.
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02-06-2014, 06:16 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 05:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I never said it was possible to traverse an actually infinite number of future events.

(02-06-2014 05:33 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I did not say you could not traverse an actually infinite number of future events.


Mathilda I want to thank you for this personally. This was worth the pages to get to and I want you to know that.
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02-06-2014, 06:17 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 12:21 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 10:35 AM)natachan Wrote:  Why does the universe need a creator? Why do we need to speak of a "before" the universe? Perhaps there was no "before" the universe. I only have a cursory knowledge of modern physics so I can't say. But why does there need to be a God? From what I understand I see no reason for one to be necessary.



Moses knew this and had no telescopes nor any of the things we have today at our disposal.

He knew thousands of years before Christ what scientists are just recently confirming.


I find that fascinating.

I find it fascinating you don't realize the story (fable) was written long after these "events", thus the author had creative licence to make up whatever BS he wanted. *gasp*

proof of moses ever existing?

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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02-06-2014, 06:23 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 04:14 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 03:51 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  So why did the universe have to come from somewhere if God didn't?

How many times do we have to repeat ourselves??

the evidence at our disposal indicates that the universe is not eternal in the past, but had a beginning a finite time ago. this means that the universe is a contingent entity.

no, that means THIS universe may have had a beginning, how many universes are there? perhaps there is a string of "big bangs" perhaps ...oh i dont know, lets just make some shit up......it works for the creationists...who wouldnt know of "god" if it wasnt for that fictional book they made a best seller. How do we know the universe hasnt always been, and as it expands, it explodes and creates another string theory universe?...all without a super genie floating in outer space creating personal science projects called life.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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02-06-2014, 06:29 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(02-06-2014 06:10 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 06:01 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  I aint reading all the pages of this, so I will just comment.

Blind faith?

Since WHEN is Atheism a faith? It is the exact opposite of faith. It is denial of the supernatural.

Hey kid, when your finished reading this book.


Hitchens 1:1 is all you need to say to your dad.

"what can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.- Christopher Hitchens"

Then walk away victorious.

a skeptic in one set of beliefs is a true believer in another set of beliefs.

for example, some atheists believe that science will one day give us a natural explanation for the beginning of the cosmos. but this is a position of faith. not only that but it is manifestly absurd. There cannot be a natural explanation for the coming into existence of all of that which is natural i.e. the universe. To maintain it could is to seat yourself on a branch of the tree of naturalism and saw it off while you sit on it.

So those atheists that believe that science will one day give us a natural explanation of the cosmos are exercising faith in believing a self contradicting position.

Jeremy there is nothing wrong in having beliefs. What matters is WHY someone believes. Do they have good reasons?

I think should think that most people would want to believe as many true things as possible and disbelieve as many false things as possible.

How does one find out the true things?
Science has consistently proven to be the best , most reliable and self correcting tool humanity has to investigate the universe.

If people believe science can some day answer those questions, it is because science has a frikken excellent track record of answering questions about our universe.

That is not faith in science.
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