I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
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31-05-2014, 02:30 PM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2014 02:34 PM by Anjele.)
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 02:25 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 02:14 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Fuck, I am slap out of sanity.

Guess I can't join your cult. Sadcryface

Tell ya what Anje I'll wave the sanity fee just for you. Welcome to the cult. Cthulhu Ai Cthulhu Ai!

Awesome! A sanity waiver...that could come in handy. Consider

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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31-05-2014, 02:33 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
*Sneaks closer and tries to lick the interesting looking waiver*

Oh...(>_>)...um...oops...


*Licks lips* Still....was tasty. ......


Big Grin

Much cheers to all.
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31-05-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:06 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 11:51 AM)catgoblin Wrote:  I'm new here, so I'm sorry if this has already been covered, but has anyone read this book?
[Image: 41iOxFVRGtL.jpg]

http://www.amazon.com/Enough-Faith-Athei...4H2JQ2QN36


My dad (a minister) sent this to me and I promised to read it Drinking Beverage

I'm about 1/3 of the way through and am pretty mystified--not sure what to think (not that I'm close to being reconverted to Christianity)

I wasn't familiar with the Cosmological or Kalam Cosmological Argument before I read this book. From my perspective, it seems pretty easy to dismiss this defending the God of the Bible, but what about a deistic God? The best thing I've thought of (so far) is that the assumption that the universe needing a sentient creator is unnecessarily complex, but from a teleological perspective, I don't see that going over very well.

I'm anticipating a pretty lengthy debate with my dad when I finish this, so I'd like to gather all the ammunition I can before then Wink

I read it. I agree with most of what is written within it. It requires blind faith to be an atheist.

or rather let me rephrase that:

in order to be an atheist, one must believe certain things that are simply not rationally defensible.
That's a misrepresentation of what an atheist is but....
When you assert that there is a god I simply say "I'm not convinced of that."
How is this not rational?
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31-05-2014, 03:17 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:22 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:17 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  The book was written by Christians for Christians so they could feel smug about it.

There's a YouTube guy to took apart the book chapter by chapter. It was a great series to watch. I wish I could recall his name....

I think the series is called 'an atheist reads..'

Someone here, EvolutionKills? Help!

yea...and every book an atheist writes is for atheists so they can feel smug about it.

fail

Yes. Just like "The Old Man And The Sea."
Written by an atheist so that other atheist can feel smug about it....
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31-05-2014, 03:27 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 01:36 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  The second seems more likely than the first: last I read, it has been established in quantum mechanics that things can seemingly pop into existence and then back out again. It is entirely possible that the singularity was a similar event. Or it could be the same event but interpreted as the first, but without any sort of deity involved, just a stray virtual particle setting things off.
(Of course, I'd ask CJLR on that, for he's rather more well informed on quantum physics than I am...)

And there is the zero energy universe hypothesis.

It states that the total amount of energy (includes mass) in the universe is exactly zero. The amount of positive energy in the form of matter is exactly canceled out by its negative energy in the form of gravity.

Edward Tryon proposed it in 1973 in the journal Nature that the Universe may have emerged from a large-scale quantum fluctuation of vacuum energy, resulting in its positive mass-energy being exactly balanced by its negative gravitational potential energy.

So, quite literally, a universe from nothing.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-05-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 01:43 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 01:36 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  The second seems more likely than the first: last I read, it has been established in quantum mechanics that things can seemingly pop into existence and then back out again. It is entirely possible that the singularity was a similar event. Or it could be the same event but interpreted as the first, but without any sort of deity involved, just a stray virtual particle setting things off.
(Of course, I'd ask CJLR on that, for he's rather more well informed on quantum physics than I am...)

i already addressed this in an earlier post. quantum mechanics does not furnish us with a reason to say that the universe could have just popped into existence from nothing without a cause.

Yes, it does. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-05-2014, 03:29 PM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2014 04:08 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:25 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 12:22 PM)catgoblin Wrote:  Thanks for the response, but as I understand it, this only addresses the Cosmological Argument, not the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which states that everything that ends had a beginning and everything with a beginning had a creator. It relies on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that the usable energy in the universe is depleting, therefore the universe will eventually end/die (according to the book).

So, God, who exists outside of time and has no beginning or ending, needed no creator.

But the universe, which will end, had a beginning, so had to have been created.

that is correct!

You don't know that. You just can't cook up a better explanation, and you have no motivation to actually find one. It's an argument from ignorance, (among other things). There are many proposed scenarios, including Hawking's friend Penrose's "Cycles of Time". To say the universe had a "beginning" when time did not exist yet, is meaningless. It also projects what you find intuitively rational about a certain level of this universe to situation(s) which cannot be assumed. It also presumes the "cause" (which, IF Kalam *is true* does not have to be Jebus' pops). The cause could be anything. However "causation" is a *process*. That requires spacetime. It's absurd to even discuss. Germey Wanker, our erstwhile debate-loser-dropper-outer-preacher-who-has-no-sex-weirdo, refuses to define his terms.

The absence of belief is not belief in absence.
But thank whoever wrote the piece of trash book in question. It's proof they actually *have * no relationship with their Jebus, and it's all just a "god of the gaps" mind game.
Saying "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" demonstrates, that above all, religion is their drug of choice. They NEED an explanation. They demand it today. They have low ambiguity tolerance, and they REQUIRE cognitive closure. (It's all about Psychology ..... not really about Physics, Cosmology or Philosophy, or even real religion.)

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-05-2014, 03:50 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
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A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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31-05-2014, 09:59 PM (This post was last modified: 01-06-2014 01:10 AM by Aseptic Skeptic.)
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 12:09 PM)One Above All Wrote:  Everything that exists came from something.
The Universe exists.
Therefore the Universe came from something that was not created.

You almost got it. Here, let me rephrase:

Everything that exists was caused to exist.
The universe exists.
Therefore the universe was caused to exist by a creator who exists but wasn't caused.

The people who defend the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA) ignore that part that I bolded. Their creator is special, he CAN exist without being caused, we don't know why, but that somehow doesn't invalidate the initial premise that EVERYTHING that exists was caused - clearly one cannot say EVERYTHING must be caused if there is at least one thing, a creator, that was uncaused. But that's exactly what the KCA fanboys say.

So the KCA is indefensible by itself. It requires special pleading ("my creator is so special that he doesn't have to follow the rules upon which the entire KCA is based").

Well, if ONE thing can be uncreated, then obviously MORE things can be uncreated:

1. Maybe Yahweh is not the uncaused creator. Maybe it was Allah, Ptah, Aten, Pangu, Mbombo, Elohim, Coatlicue, Viracocha, or many others.
2. Maybe there is more than one uncaused creator. Maybe all of the gods I just listed are ALL uncaused creators. And more...
3. Maybe the universe is uncuased. Hey, if KCA fanboys can use special pleading to give Yahweh an exemption, then I can use special pleading to give the universe an exemption.
4. Maybe LOTS of things are uncaused. Maybe everything is uncaused. Heck, if we can exempt a creator with special pleading, why can't we exempt EVERYTHING?

Once you begin with special pleading, then EVERYTHING gets to slide down that slippery slope.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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31-05-2014, 10:36 PM
RE: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
(31-05-2014 03:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-05-2014 01:36 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  The second seems more likely than the first: last I read, it has been established in quantum mechanics that things can seemingly pop into existence and then back out again. It is entirely possible that the singularity was a similar event. Or it could be the same event but interpreted as the first, but without any sort of deity involved, just a stray virtual particle setting things off.
(Of course, I'd ask CJLR on that, for he's rather more well informed on quantum physics than I am...)

And there is the zero energy universe hypothesis.

It states that the total amount of energy (includes mass) in the universe is exactly zero. The amount of positive energy in the form of matter is exactly canceled out by its negative energy in the form of gravity.

Edward Tryon proposed it in 1973 in the journal Nature that the Universe may have emerged from a large-scale quantum fluctuation of vacuum energy, resulting in its positive mass-energy being exactly balanced by its negative gravitational potential energy.

So, quite literally, a universe from nothing.

Doesn't dark energy throw through a wrench in all of that?
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