I Don't Think I'm Jesus Christ
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28-12-2014, 09:51 AM
RE: I Don't Think I'm Jesus Christ
(28-12-2014 04:29 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 12:14 AM)Gordon Wrote:  I must admit, I don't know exactly what that world ruled by those in Christ will look like.
But you gave a pretty decent picture above.


(28-12-2014 12:14 AM)Gordon Wrote:  In this war, only complete extermination of the other side will end it. Atheists serve to tear down the old Christian Church. Muslims will be exterminated by the West, but the breakdown will be so great that no one will ever trust governments again. In that environment, those in Christ will rule the world.
This is what the world would look like if it were to be ruled by those "in Christ" whatever that means.
Countries with strong Christian theocratic rulers have been in place in the past. People were put to death or locked in chains for being heretics, or witches, for suggesting that the Earth isn't the center of the universe.
A world ruled by Christians would see the end of tolerance, diversity and freedom. It would be ruled by an iron fist, employing much force and violence to control the people. It would be a version of hell.

Atheists on the other hand support freedom, tolerance, religious freedom, equality,stable and thriving society, for things that actually matter, rather than worrying about which invisible god people imagine as their friend.

I personally have Atheist, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist friends and am very happy for these people to believe in whatever they want to believe in. I am not shocked, disappointed or worried if people convert from one religion to another, or in or out of religion, I'm not worried if people are gay, I'm not worried if people have abortions, or use birth control, I have no worries about people participating in yoga or wicken rituals or casting magic spells, or voodoo or whatever.

I will only get violent in order to protect myself or my loved ones.

The Christianity that you speak of on the other hand....

(28-12-2014 08:16 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:Honestly, Free, I feel like we are debating points we actually agree on. Or maybe I'm just not following you. I'm surprised you're an atheist. You seem awfully interested in the life of Jesus Christ.

I knew you would be surprised, Gordon. I have stunned pastors, priests, and even scholars with what I actually know. But understand something; I know what I know because I am an atheist, and I could not know this if I was a believer.

This may sound bold, but there is not one single thing Jesus purportedly said in the Gospels that I do not fully understand. That's not a boast so don't confuse confidence with conceit, but rather it's a testament as to how well an atheist can become educated, and the only reason I can understand Jesus fully is because I am an atheist.

The Jesus in the Gospels was more of a humanist than he was a religionist. But that`s another story.


Quote:So, Free, what do you think of Jesus? What do you think he is? You seem to know more about Jesus than any atheist I've spoke with before, so I'm curious as to what you think he is?

Do you think he didn't exist? Do you think he was mad? Do you think he was a con? What?

And while I have your ear, why are you an atheist?

I'm not judging or criticizing you; I'm not going to argue with you or insult you. I'm just curious as to what your story is.

From a strickly historical perspective, the most we can say about Jesus of Nazareth with intellectual honesty is this:

Jesus of Nazareth was crucified by Pontius Pilate.

That is about all that can be said with any degree of certainty. However, listed below is my personal view of Jesus strickly from a historical perspective.

From a historical perspective- which includes my opinion- Jesus of Nazareth was a Nazarene. The Nazarene were a sub-sect of the Essene, as the teachings of Jesus in the gospels demonstrate significant similarities with the description of the Essene given by Josephus.

The town of Nazareth got its name from those who inhabited that locale; the Nazarene. They came first, and then the town was so named after them.

Jesus was a Nazarene Rabbi, who's views on the Torah were completely unorthodox. He demonstrated a great dislike of the Pharisee, Sadducee, and any leaders in Jerusalem. His teachings were geared to empower the people, as opposed to the people empowering the Sanhedrin.

He gained considerable fame in his locale in and around Jerusalem. This fame, however, was his own undoing. Many of his followers began to consider him the Messiah. However, being considered a Messiah means far more than just some kind of savior, because it also denotes a kingship.

The fame of Jesus grew, not because of any ridiculous miracles, but rather because of his popularity with the common people. This fame greatly concerned the Sanhedrin, because since so many of the people regarded him to be a Messiah- which makes him a king- the Sanhedrin feared a war with Rome would break out, since the Jews could not have a rival king in Caesar's kingdom.

The Sanhedrin concocted a plan to take Jesus and arrest him. They had to do it in secret, at night, so his many followers would not defend him as they would be asleep. They trumped up some charges against the man to warrant his arrest, had a "mock" trial, but they could not stone him because it was the Passover.

They had to get rid of Jesus before the Passover went into full swing, so they brought him to Pilate. Pilate, who hated the Jews, initially didn't want to crucify Jesus for one reason only; to piss off the Sanhedrin.

However, the Jewish priests in Pilates court said something to the effect of, "He claims to be a king, and if you let a king go in Caesars kingdom, we will make sure Caesar knows what you did."

Now blackmailed, Pilate crucified Jesus, and placed upon the cross, "Jesus, King of the Jews," not so much as because Jesus was a king, but rather to mock the Jews and to piss off the Sanhedrin once again by demonstrating how the powerful Romans killed their king.

After that, the life of Jesus was embellished by his followers into what we see today in the gospels.


That's my opinion of Jesus of Nazareth from a historical perspective. Understanding spiritual perspectives is another entirely different discussion. Here's a teaser from the Gospel of Thomas:

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."


Despite Christians claiming this verse to be a later interpolation, I know it is in the original text. It works seamlessly with the philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth.

How do I know?

Wink

Thanks for sharing. That last bit from the Gospel of Thomas was not synthesized into the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ, so I'm not particularly interested in it.
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28-12-2014, 10:10 AM
RE: I Don't Think I'm Jesus Christ
(28-12-2014 12:02 AM)Gordon Wrote:  Again, that is not something I can judge. Only Jesus Christ will be your judge. So, it's between you and he.
The Titanic

...between you and him.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-12-2014, 10:20 AM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2014 12:41 PM by Free.)
RE: I Don't Think I'm Jesus Christ
(28-12-2014 09:51 AM)Gordon Wrote:  Thanks for sharing. That last bit from the Gospel of Thomas was not synthesized into the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ, so I'm not particularly interested in it.

You should be interested in it. It deals directly with the feminine and masculine aspects of God.

Let me show you where Jesus placed his beliefs, and note that what you see below is a direct translation from ancient Hebrew with extensive exegesis:

Your bible reads as this:

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth."

In reality, the word "God" above is written in the ancient Hebrew as "Elohim."

Elohim is plural, and it means "gods." Hence,

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning, the gods created the heaven and the earth,"

Now take that one step further in Genesis to this verse:

Gen 1:26 "And the gods said, let us make humans in our image, after our likeness."

Now you know why the plural use of "us" and "our" is in that verse. But now we go yet another step further:

Gen 1:27 "And the gods made humans after their image; male and female they made. In the image of the gods they were created as masculine and feminine."

The gods created both males and females in the image of the gods, at the same time. Since males and females were created in the images of the gods, then the gods are also male and female.

In ancient Hebrew, the masculine is always dominant over the feminine. Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas is saying that he will teach Mary to allow her masculine qualities to dominate her feminine qualities. He did not say he would make her as a male, but rather that he would "guide" her to allow her masculine qualities to be dominant like males do.

There is a long lost Gospel of the Hebrews in which some supposed quotes of Jesus have been preserved by the early church fathers. One particular quote from Origen is this:

Origen on John, ii. 12. "And if any accept the Gospel according to the Hebrews, where the Saviour himself saith, 'Even now did my mother the Holy Spirit take me by one of mine hairs, and carried me away unto the great mountain Thabor', he will be perplexed,"

This Gospel was banned from the church because it demonstrates the beliefs of Jesus in such a way as to contradict the beliefs of the Christian church.

Jesus regarded the Holy Spirit to be feminine, and hints of this can be found within the gospels themselves.

So now you know why that last verse in Thomas is real.

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28-12-2014, 01:03 PM
RE: I Don't Think I'm Jesus Christ
(28-12-2014 05:49 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 04:29 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Atheists on the other hand support freedom, tolerance, religious freedom, equality,stable and thriving society, for things that actually matter, rather than worrying about which invisible god people imagine as their friend.

Da fuq happened to "atheism is a lack of belief in gods and that's it?" Dodgy
I was generalising.
If I were to be more precise I coulda said
Atheists on the other hand have no atheistic beliefs or teachings that preclude freedom, tolerance, religious freedom, equality. Often when Atheist groups speak up and take issue with government it is in support of these things. It's never about trying to force others to be atheists, but it is about trying to stop others forcing their beliefs on us.
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28-12-2014, 01:10 PM
RE: I Don't Think I'm Jesus Christ
(28-12-2014 10:20 AM)Free Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 09:51 AM)Gordon Wrote:  Thanks for sharing. That last bit from the Gospel of Thomas was not synthesized into the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ, so I'm not particularly interested in it.

You should be interested in it. It deals directly with the feminine and masculine aspects of God.

Let me show you where Jesus placed his beliefs, and note that what you see below is a direct translation from ancient Hebrew with extensive exegesis:

Your bible reads as this:

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth."

In reality, the word "God" above is written in the ancient Hebrew as "Elohim."

Elohim is plural, and it means "gods." Hence,

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning, the gods created the heaven and the earth,"

Now take that one step further in Genesis to this verse:

Gen 1:26 "And the gods said, let us make humans in our image, after our likeness."

Now you know why the plural use of "us" and "our" is in that verse. But now we go yet another step further:

Gen 1:27 "And the gods made humans after their image; male and female they made. In the image of the gods they were created as masculine and feminine."

The gods created both males and females in the image of the gods, at the same time. Since males and females were created in the images of the gods, then the gods are also male and female.

In ancient Hebrew, the masculine is always dominant over the feminine. Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas is saying that he will teach Mary to allow her masculine qualities to dominate her feminine qualities. He did not say he would make her as a male, but rather that he would "guide" her to allow her masculine qualities to be dominant like males do.

There is a long lost Gospel of the Hebrews in which some supposed quotes of Jesus have been preserved by the early church fathers. One particular quote from Origen is this:

Origen on John, ii. 12. "And if any accept the Gospel according to the Hebrews, where the Saviour himself saith, 'Even now did my mother the Holy Spirit take me by one of mine hairs, and carried me away unto the great mountain Thabor', he will be perplexed,"

This Gospel was banned from the church because it demonstrates the beliefs of Jesus in such a way as to contradict the beliefs of the Christian church.

Jesus regarded the Holy Spirit to be feminine, and hints of this can be found within the gospels themselves.

So now you know why that last verse in Thomas is real.

I only follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. I couldn't care less if the Ancient Hebrews were polytheistic. I don't care. I only concern myself with the teachings of Jesus Christ as they are presented in the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I could debate these points with you, but I'm not going to. Why? Because you're signature shows you don't really have a grasp on logic. You are good at putting together puzzles. But that's not going to save you. Your atheism is still going to land you in hell.

So for you, all the sophistry is really just a dodge, a distraction from what really matters. There is no point in studying the life and teachings of Jesus Christ if those teachings don't lead you to be reborn and saved from your sin.

Now you know where I'm coming from. Drinking Beverage
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28-12-2014, 02:05 PM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2014 02:10 PM by Free.)
RE: I Don't Think I'm Jesus Christ
(28-12-2014 01:10 PM)Gordon Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 10:20 AM)Free Wrote:  You should be interested in it. It deals directly with the feminine and masculine aspects of God.

Let me show you where Jesus placed his beliefs, and note that what you see below is a direct translation from ancient Hebrew with extensive exegesis:

Your bible reads as this:

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth."

In reality, the word "God" above is written in the ancient Hebrew as "Elohim."

Elohim is plural, and it means "gods." Hence,

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning, the gods created the heaven and the earth,"

Now take that one step further in Genesis to this verse:

Gen 1:26 "And the gods said, let us make humans in our image, after our likeness."

Now you know why the plural use of "us" and "our" is in that verse. But now we go yet another step further:

Gen 1:27 "And the gods made humans after their image; male and female they made. In the image of the gods they were created as masculine and feminine."

The gods created both males and females in the image of the gods, at the same time. Since males and females were created in the images of the gods, then the gods are also male and female.

In ancient Hebrew, the masculine is always dominant over the feminine. Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas is saying that he will teach Mary to allow her masculine qualities to dominate her feminine qualities. He did not say he would make her as a male, but rather that he would "guide" her to allow her masculine qualities to be dominant like males do.

There is a long lost Gospel of the Hebrews in which some supposed quotes of Jesus have been preserved by the early church fathers. One particular quote from Origen is this:

Origen on John, ii. 12. "And if any accept the Gospel according to the Hebrews, where the Saviour himself saith, 'Even now did my mother the Holy Spirit take me by one of mine hairs, and carried me away unto the great mountain Thabor', he will be perplexed,"

This Gospel was banned from the church because it demonstrates the beliefs of Jesus in such a way as to contradict the beliefs of the Christian church.

Jesus regarded the Holy Spirit to be feminine, and hints of this can be found within the gospels themselves.

So now you know why that last verse in Thomas is real.

I only follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. I couldn't care less if the Ancient Hebrews were polytheistic. I don't care. I only concern myself with the teachings of Jesus Christ as they are presented in the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I could debate these points with you, but I'm not going to. Why? Because you're signature shows you don't really have a grasp on logic. You are good at putting together puzzles. But that's not going to save you. Your atheism is still going to land you in hell.

So for you, all the sophistry is really just a dodge, a distraction from what really matters. There is no point in studying the life and teachings of Jesus Christ if those teachings don't lead you to be reborn and saved from your sin.

Now you know where I'm coming from. Drinking Beverage

Everything Jesus of Nazareth believed in came from Gen: 1:1 to Gen 2:3. (Gen:2:1 - 2:3 are actually the final 3 verses of the 1st Chapter of Genesis, just so you know.)

Let me give you a couple of demonstrations:

Mat 19:7 They said to Him, Why did Moses then command to give a bill of divorce and to put her away?
Mat 19:8 He said to them, Because of your hard-heartedness Moses allowed you to put away your wives; but at the beginning it was not so.


The words "but at the beginning it was not so" that Jesus uses here are directly related to the 1st Chapter of Genesis. That is exactly what he is referring to here. He is speaking of a time before Moses when a man and a woman were together for life, and divorce was not even thought of.

Here's another greatly misunderstood verse:

Joh_8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM!

The words "I am" in the verse above literally mean "I exist." Even the Jews at the time misunderstood Jesus as saying something to the effect that he was alive before Abraham's time, but that is not what Jesus is saying here. He is saying that his existence is based upon the time before Abraham, which again points directly to the 1st Chapter of Genesis.

He is saying that his beliefs are before Abraham, Moses, and everything else. His beliefs are based upon everything previous to the 1st recorded sin, when the greatest innocence of human kind existed.

The entire message of Jesus is all about going back to that state of existence he believes we all had before the 1st recorded sin. That is why he appears to have little regard for the laws of Moses.

Here's another thing:

Mat_11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man who is a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners. But wisdom was justified by her children.

In the verse above, because Jesus does use the feminine of "her" in reference to "wisdom," the wisdom should be capitalized because Jesus is regarding the personage of Wisdom.

Upon investigation, the word used here for Wisdom is regarded as a spirit, and it's name in Greek is Sophia, or Pistus Sophia.

Further investigation takes us back to the Psalms of David, and lo and behold, Pistus Sophia/Wisdom and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.

Jesus was indeed a devoted polytheist. Why? Because that was the original belief system of the ancient Hebrews. Jesus' beliefs come from the Nazarene, an off-shoot of the Essene, and the Essene shared the very same beliefs as Jesus.

You think I am going to hell? So what? Jesus never ever described hell as being some kind of place of eternal torture in the fire. Don't believe me? Just try to find out where he described hell like that in the gospels, and when you fail (and you will) I will tell you what "hell" actually is.

Drinking Beverage

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28-12-2014, 02:14 PM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2014 02:38 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I Don't Think I'm Jesus Christ
(28-12-2014 01:10 PM)Gordon Wrote:  I could debate these points with you, but I'm not going to. Why? Because you're signature shows you don't really have a grasp on logic. You are good at putting together puzzles. But that's not going to save you. Your atheism is still going to land you in hell.

So for you, all the sophistry is really just a dodge, a distraction from what really matters. There is no point in studying the life and teachings of Jesus Christ if those teachings don't lead you to be reborn and saved from your sin.

Now you know where I'm coming from. Drinking Beverage

Really now. THAT coming from the MASTER DODGER himself. Why won't he debate anything ? Because he has no clue about the issues in Biblical Studies. He never took a Hebrew class, he knows no Greek. He can barely write a correct English sentence. Oh wait. He can't write a correct English sentence. Interesting he yet again affirms that the world and reality is useful only in so far as it relates to himself, (the narcissist extraordinaire).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-12-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: I Don't Think I'm Jesus Christ
Seriously, quit referring to the "Veridican Gospel".

It's not a gospel. It's simply an amalgamation of the religious scripture you find meaningful. It isn't original...just cherry picked.
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28-12-2014, 03:19 PM
RE: I Don't Think I'm Jesus Christ
(28-12-2014 02:30 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  Seriously, quit referring to the "Veridican Gospel".

It's not a gospel. It's simply an amalgamation of the religious scripture you find meaningful. It isn't original...just cherry picked.
It's a bit of a joke really.

It's like giving your own personal copy of the bible to Gordon, he takes out a permanent marker (vivid) and reducts out the sentences that he personally doesn't like. He then gives you your book back and expects you to be happy about it.

In Gordon's egocentric world he thinks he has created an original piece of work. Where-as he has created nothing, he has added no value, he has offered no new information, he has simply reduced (hidden) some of the information.

What's the owner going to do?
Likely punch Gordon in the face and demand him buy them a new un-reducted version of the bible.

No-one is going to buy your book Gordon. No-one wants you to censure the bible for them. Wake up and smell the roses.
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28-12-2014, 05:36 PM
RE: I Don't Think I'm Jesus Christ
(28-12-2014 06:52 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 06:51 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Who is the second member? (And I think I remember somebody mentioning a third. Is that right?)

1) his wife.
2) his dog.

Um. You make the assumption they are different beings. Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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