I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
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17-06-2011, 12:50 PM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2011 01:01 PM by myst32.)
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
(31-05-2011 01:58 AM)SumAtheosMagnus Wrote:  You know how it goes.
Just happily write below solid facts and proof that god doesn't exist.

sure...I can prove it to YOU... no problem... commit suicide Big Grin

[Note... I am just kidding... but it would be proof... if you think about it we will all get proof in the end]

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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17-06-2011, 06:16 PM
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
(31-05-2011 09:40 PM)SumAtheosMagnus Wrote:  I can't change my avatar too. . . Sad

Do you use Safari? I couldn't change it with Safari, but I could with Firefox.

He was part of my dream, of course--but then I was part of his dream, too!
--Alice
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17-07-2011, 03:55 PM
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
(31-05-2011 02:20 AM)SumAtheosMagnus Wrote:  
(31-05-2011 02:18 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Sure thing. Right after you provide me with solid proof that Zeus doesn't exist.


I'm starting to think the Burden of Proof argument will be the bane of atheist's existence.

LOL, nice one dude. Just so we're clear, I'm an atheist. NOT some delusional, crazy theist. I just want to see how many proofs and facts a group of atheists like me in a forum can think of. Haha

Per Logic 101 : One cannot prove a negative.

"if you think about it we will all get proof in the end"
---- No we won't, as we won't be conscious as the process is ending, and done.

To "create" a universe it would have had to have "acted". An action is a temporally dependant concept, with, for general argument's sake, a beginning a middle and an end. Part of the created universe is space-time. The act would have had to "begin" before space-time, which is a temoral act in a non-temporal environment, which is nonsensical, and illogical. Can't have an act beginning before the beginning. How' that ? Cool

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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17-07-2011, 04:42 PM
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
Another way to deal with this is approach from the angle of 'Known Gods.' The ones written about in scripture. It's fairly easy to rule them out.

They are logically inconsistent. It doesn't prove there isn't a god. It just proves there isn't THAT god.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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17-07-2011, 06:20 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2011 06:57 PM by Mr Woof.)
The Deism Delusion.
(31-05-2011 08:29 AM)BnW Wrote:  How can you prove that something does not exist? It is logically impossible to do this.

What we can prove, though, is that the basis for the existence of god, i.e. the Talmud, the Bible, the Q'uron, all make claims that are demonstrably not true and, therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that these books are all wrong in their entirety. As they are the basis for the belief in the three major monotheist religions, you can state, fairly conclusively, that all three of these religions are false.

That is obviously not the same as "proving" there is no god, but it does go a long way to disproving the religions that follow him/her/it. As for "proving" or "disproving" god, all we can really do is evaluate the actual evidence we have about the origins of life, the universe and everything and see where that leads us. To date, none of the evidence leads to the conclusion that there is some magical being who has caused all of this. Again, that does not prove there is no god, but absent any evidence to support the god hypothesis, we can dismiss it as easily as we dismiss the idea that the first man on Earth was Elvis.


(17-07-2011 06:20 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(31-05-2011 08:29 AM)BnW Wrote:  How can you prove that something does not exist? It is logically impossible to do this.

What we can prove, though, is that the basis for the existence of god, i.e. the Talmud, the Bible, the Q'uron, all make claims that are demonstrably not true and, therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that these books are all wrong in their entirety. As they are the basis for the belief in the three major monotheist religions, you can state, fairly conclusively, that all three of these religions are false.

That is obviously not the same as "proving" there is no god, but it does go a long way to disproving the religions that follow him/her/it. As for "proving" or "disproving" god, all we can really do is evaluate the actual evidence we have about the origins of life, the universe and everything and see where that leads us. To date, none of the evidence leads to the conclusion that there is some magical being who has caused all of this. Again, that does not prove there is no god, but absent any evidence to support the god hypothesis, we can dismiss it as easily as we dismiss the idea that the first man on Earth was Elvis.

The Deism Delusion[

In Australia I find that many atheists concern themselves with only with the so called religions of the book--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
There are of course many other gods; the hindus have thousands, but here I would like to look at Deism. Deism posits that god created the world and then abandoned it. Hey wait a minute what good god creates something for the fun of suffering and abandonment;more like an evil spiritual entity I would say. Maybe Grandpa Simpson is right "hey satan you owe me!"
Really deism is a silly term. Do they mean that pre big bang there had to be a causal factor or that Jehovah god ,or who ever, simply got pissed off?
In sum, I think that the god of Deism can be categorically eliminated.
(1) A fumbling experimenter cannot be classed as a god.
(2)A spiritual being who simply plays with good/evil likewise.
(3)The god of Deism is simply an entity of gross confusion.
The late great Antony Flew allegedly became a Deist in his last years co writing a book with a christian apologist. Close to his death I really wonder what he saw in it.
~~~~~Mr Woof.Confused[/u]
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18-07-2011, 12:34 AM (This post was last modified: 18-07-2011 04:21 AM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
I got a philosophical argument that disproves the existence of god, is not mine, I saw it after an atheist friend of mine gave a link, it is written in spanish, but I'll do my best to translate as accurately as possible I can.

The syllogism is this:

1.- If there is an instant, there is time in that instant.

2.- "Creating" is a process that can be described as; An agent (creator) makes an object (created) to change from non-existence into existence.

3.- (from 2) Therefore, if "X" was created, there has been (among other things) a process of "non existence" into "existence" of "X".

4.- (from 3) Therefore, if "X" was created, there has been one instant when "X" didn't exist.

5.- (from 4) Therefore, If there has been a creation of time, there has been one instant when time didn't exist.

6.- (from 1 & 5) Therefore, if there has been a creation of time, there has been one instant when time didn't exist.

7.- (from 6) Therefore, if there has been a creation of time, there has been something that is impossible, an instant when time existed already (because it was an instant of time) and at the same time is an instant when time didn't exist.

8.- (from 7) Therefore, the creation of time is impossible, that implies the existence of something impossible.

9.- (from 1) If there is an instant when there was a universe, there is time because, if there is an instant, there is time.

10.- The universe includes everything that we can observe rationally.

11.- (from 10) The Universe includes the time.

12.- (from 11) If there is no universe, then there is no time.

13.- (from 9 & 12) Therefore, creating a universe implies a creating time, because there cannot be an instant where the universe exists and time don't, and vice-versa.

14.- (from 8 & 13) If the creation of time is impossible, then there cannot be a creation of the universe.

15.- (from 14) There cannot be a "creator" of the universe.

16.- "God" is defined as the creator of the universe.

17.- (from 15 & 16) There cannot be a god.

Conclussion: God does not exist.

As I said before, that argument is not mine, for those who can read spanish, the link to the author's blog is this.

I think that it is not possible to prove the non-existence of something IMO, but I think this argument is very interesting and may be true if we define "god" as a being who created time and universe.
Peace.

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
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18-07-2011, 08:52 AM (This post was last modified: 18-07-2011 09:14 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
(18-07-2011 12:34 AM)MasterRottweiler Wrote:  I got a philosophical argument that disproves the existence of god, is not mine, I saw it after an atheist friend of mine gave a link, it is written in spanish, but I'll do my best to translate as accurately as possible I can.

The syllogism is this:

1.- If there is an instant, there is time in that instant.

2.- "Creating" is a process that can be described as; An agent (creator) makes an object (created) to change from non-existence into existence.

3.- (from 2) Therefore, if "X" was created, there has been (among other things) a process of "non existence" into "existence" of "X".

4.- (from 3) Therefore, if "X" was created, there has been one instant when "X" didn't exist.

5.- (from 4) Therefore, If there has been a creation of time, there has been one instant when time didn't exist.

6.- (from 1 & 5) Therefore, if there has been a creation of time, there has been one instant when time didn't exist.

7.- (from 6) Therefore, if there has been a creation of time, there has been something that is impossible, an instant when time existed already (because it was an instant of time) and at the same time is an instant when time didn't exist.

8.- (from 7) Therefore, the creation of time is impossible, that implies the existence of something impossible.

9.- (from 1) If there is an instant when there was a universe, there is time because, if there is an instant, there is time.

10.- The universe includes everything that we can observe rationally.

11.- (from 10) The Universe includes the time.

12.- (from 11) If there is no universe, then there is no time.

13.- (from 9 & 12) Therefore, creating a universe implies a creating time, because there cannot be an instant where the universe exists and time don't, and vice-versa.

14.- (from 8 & 13) If the creation of time is impossible, then there cannot be a creation of the universe.

15.- (from 14) There cannot be a "creator" of the universe.

16.- "God" is defined as the creator of the universe.

17.- (from 15 & 16) There cannot be a god.

Conclussion: God does not exist.

As I said before, that argument is not mine, for those who can read spanish, the link to the author's blog is this.

I think that it is not possible to prove the non-existence of something IMO, but I think this argument is very interesting and may be true if we define "god" as a being who created time and universe.
Peace.

Interesting, but I get hung up on the very first line. There IS no "instant". Because however small that is, it can be further broken into smaller "pieces", by better clocks, and and would require further definition. Ad infinitum. So the premise is immediatley illogical.
I will go look at this in Spanish later today, but basically it is saying the same as I said above, about a "beginning" starting, (a "temporal" moment), before space-time was created. No ?
(18-07-2011 12:34 AM)MasterRottweiler Wrote:  I got a philosophical argument that disproves the existence of god, is not mine, I saw it after an atheist friend of mine gave a link, it is written in spanish, but I'll do my best to translate as accurately as possible I can.

The syllogism is this:

1.- If there is an instant, there is time in that instant.

2.- "Creating" is a process that can be described as; An agent (creator) makes an object (created) to change from non-existence into existence.

3.- (from 2) Therefore, if "X" was created, there has been (among other things) a process of "non existence" into "existence" of "X".

4.- (from 3) Therefore, if "X" was created, there has been one instant when "X" didn't exist.

5.- (from 4) Therefore, If there has been a creation of time, there has been one instant when time didn't exist.

6.- (from 1 & 5) Therefore, if there has been a creation of time, there has been one instant when time didn't exist.

7.- (from 6) Therefore, if there has been a creation of time, there has been something that is impossible, an instant when time existed already (because it was an instant of time) and at the same time is an instant when time didn't exist.

8.- (from 7) Therefore, the creation of time is impossible, that implies the existence of something impossible.

9.- (from 1) If there is an instant when there was a universe, there is time because, if there is an instant, there is time.

10.- The universe includes everything that we can observe rationally.

11.- (from 10) The Universe includes the time.

12.- (from 11) If there is no universe, then there is no time.

13.- (from 9 & 12) Therefore, creating a universe implies a creating time, because there cannot be an instant where the universe exists and time don't, and vice-versa.

14.- (from 8 & 13) If the creation of time is impossible, then there cannot be a creation of the universe.

15.- (from 14) There cannot be a "creator" of the universe.

16.- "God" is defined as the creator of the universe.

17.- (from 15 & 16) There cannot be a god.

Conclussion: God does not exist.

As I said before, that argument is not mine, for those who can read spanish, the link to the author's blog is this.

I think that it is not possible to prove the non-existence of something IMO, but I think this argument is very interesting and may be true if we define "god" as a being who created time and universe.
Peace.

Addendum :
re:

"Creating" is a process that can be described as; An agent (creator) makes an object (created) to change from non-existence into existence.

Maybe. But we know that is not the only description . It can also be described as an agent "assembling" an object from (already) existent objects. Just an assembly of preexisting parts. So far the lower limit to that is unknown, although possibly proposed, (E=MC(squared)). (But that raises the question of where did the energy come from?) The value of one definition over the other has so far not been demonstrated.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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18-07-2011, 09:58 AM
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
[quote='The_observer' pid='33240' dateline='1306834274']
[quote='SumAtheosMagnus' pid='33237' dateline='1306832172']
Example:
God simply doesn't exist because there is evil. Big Grin

Unless "evil" is chaos, and you recognize Chaos theory, and it may be the opposite of order. Then you may be barking up the wrong tree.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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18-07-2011, 10:17 AM
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
Science.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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18-07-2011, 08:12 PM
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
(18-07-2011 10:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Science.

Science is God, as far as we know.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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