I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
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25-07-2011, 06:59 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2011 07:02 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
It appears to me that proof of god's non existence, based on how the concept is defined-----perfectly good, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent etc (Christian) is indicated, at the finite level, in keeping with our evolved cognative abilities
by the world of suffering and pain we find ourselves inhabiting.
How could the suffering, insane, stupid, crippled, psycotic, neurotic; those living one day or one hundred years be judged as worthy for eternal life?
How too, could god's rights to create misery, even for pie in the sky ever be justified? (I see afterlife as an integral part of belief)
If we claim that god is ineffable then we are saying nothing at all;religious people of course want to tack this on to their preconcieved values.
The whole way the god concept has been packaged with guesses transcending imperical knowledge seems adequate to deny the existence of such.
~~~~~~~~~~~~Mr WoofDodgy
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26-07-2011, 09:41 PM
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
Lets talk the Christian God.


God is a character from a book called The Bible.
The Bible claims to be true, so it's assumed that God is a person, not meerly a character from the book.
Though the Bible has been proven to mainly falsehoods. Therefore it is not true as it claims to be. If The Bible is actually fictional and The Bible is where the character God is from, then that means that God is also fictional.

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27-07-2011, 04:01 AM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2011 04:15 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
A few questions, and stuff.
(26-07-2011 09:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Lets talk the Christian God.
The "Christian god" is ONE of the characters, (and depending which text you are are talking about, had different names and characteristics), IN the Bible. IT, originally, WAS the Hebrew god, which had developed from many sources. If you choose to look at one particular temporal slice, for example the slice where that concept had evolved, up to the time of one of the apocalyptic preachers, (Yeshua), whose followers thought (he) had something unique to say about certain things, and say THAT slice represented THE Hebrew god, I think you may have a LOT more work to do here. It was also, secondary to the cultural cross-currents of the time, at any given moment, a dynamic and evolving concept, (Greek Gnostic influence, Roman cultural overlay). The concepts of that deity existed apart from, (not just in), the Bible, and by the year, (strictly for argument's sake), 5BCE, was NOT the same as say, 700 BCE, or 1500 BCE, both important periods in the development of the texts in question.
(26-07-2011 09:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  The Bible claims to be true
Not so sure. Where does it claim that ? Do you mean SOME if it's proponents claim parts/all of it are "authentic", (and SURELY the Jews claimed parts were more important ("authentic"/"true") than others, ie the Pentateuch vs the Sayings vs the Prophets vs the Psalms. Does "authentic = "true" = meaningful = useful = valuable ? Does saying the word "true" in 5 BCE denote the same thing as "true" does in 2011 ? I don't think so.
(26-07-2011 09:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  so it's assumed that God is a person,
Really ? Did the concept of "person-hood" in 5 BCE mean anything to a non-Greek, (specifically a Jew), in 5 BCE ? Did they, (Aramaic speakers) even have a word for "person" ? If so what are it's other translations ? Is the biblical concept of person-hood, assuming there is one, REALLY applied, (or assumed to apply) to the deity ?
(26-07-2011 09:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Though the Bible has been proven to mainly falsehoods.
If it was intended as "wisdom" or mythology, does that even make sense ? (Do we say the Illiad and the Odyssey are "false" ?)
(26-07-2011 09:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Therefore it is not true
Does that mean it is inauthentic ? What does "not true" mean ? Does "not true" for a pre-scientific writer mean the same thing as it does for someone with a 2011 worldview ?
(26-07-2011 09:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  If The Bible is actually fictional and The Bible is where the character God is from, then that means that God is also fictional.
Is "fiction" (ie non-fact) not a 2011 conceptual overlay onto a text from a culture which surely had no such words, (either "fact" or "fiction"), or concepts ?

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27-07-2011, 05:28 AM
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
(27-07-2011 04:01 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  A few questions, and stuff.
(26-07-2011 09:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Lets talk the Christian God.
The "Christian god" is ONE of the characters, (and depending which text you are are talking about, had different names and characteristics), IN the Bible. IT, originally, WAS the Hebrew god, which had developed from many sources. If you choose to look at one particular temporal slice, for example the slice where that concept had evolved, up to the time of one of the apocalyptic preachers, (Yeshua), whose followers thought (he) had something unique to say about certain things, and say THAT slice represented THE Hebrew god, I think you may have a LOT more work to do here. It was also, secondary to the cultural cross-currents of the time, at any given moment, a dynamic and evolving concept, (Greek Gnostic influence, Roman cultural overlay). The concepts of that deity existed apart from, (not just in), the Bible, and by the year, (strictly for argument's sake), 5BCE, was NOT the same as say, 700 BCE, or 1500 BCE, both important periods in the development of the texts in question.
(26-07-2011 09:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  The Bible claims to be true
Not so sure. Where does it claim that ? Do you mean SOME if it's proponents claim parts/all of it are "authentic", (and SURELY the Jews claimed parts were more important ("authentic"/"true") than others, ie the Pentateuch vs the Sayings vs the Prophets vs the Psalms. Does "authentic = "true" = meaningful = useful = valuable ? Does saying the word "true" in 5 BCE denote the same thing as "true" does in 2011 ? I don't think so.
(26-07-2011 09:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  so it's assumed that God is a person,
Really ? Did the concept of "person-hood" in 5 BCE mean anything to a non-Greek, (specifically a Jew), in 5 BCE ? Did they, (Aramaic speakers) even have a word for "person" ? If so what are it's other translations ? Is the biblical concept of person-hood, assuming there is one, REALLY applied, (or assumed to apply) to the deity ?
(26-07-2011 09:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Though the Bible has been proven to mainly falsehoods.
If it was intended as "wisdom" or mythology, does that even make sense ? (Do we say the Illiad and the Odyssey are "false" ?)
(26-07-2011 09:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Therefore it is not true
Does that mean it is inauthentic ? What does "not true" mean ? Does "not true" for a pre-scientific writer mean the same thing as it does for someone with a 2011 worldview ?
(26-07-2011 09:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  If The Bible is actually fictional and The Bible is where the character God is from, then that means that God is also fictional.
Is "fiction" (ie non-fact) not a 2011 conceptual overlay onto a text from a culture which surely had no such words, (either "fact" or "fiction"), or concepts ?

Ehhh. This just seems like a lot of words which don't actually say anything, mixed with picking on use of language while ignoring the underlying argument.

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27-07-2011, 06:11 AM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2011 06:25 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
"Ehhh. This just seems like a lot of words which don't actually say anything, mixed with picking on use of language while ignoring the underlying argument. "

Wrong. I took apart your "underlying argument", piece by piece, and you replied to none of it. If that is what passes for argument here, I may be in the wrong place.
If the elements of your premise are invalid, then your conclusion is invalid, and the "argument" is refuted. The fact is, you appear to know nothing about what you are talking.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-07-2011, 07:23 AM
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
Ok, I'll make this real simple for you. Your argument is : God , as a character in the bible, doesn't exist, because the bible is false.
If gods exists outside their references the bible, then what ?


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27-07-2011, 09:39 AM
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
Bible = infallible word of God
Qu'ran = infallible word of God
Torah = infallible word of God

All three rely on supernatural explanations for God or acts that God can perform (example: parting the red sea). There exists no evidence of the existence of supernature and there exists no evidence that hints at the existence of supernature. Therefore, all actions must take place within nature and can therefore be assigned natural explanations. The water turned red? Contamination or algal blooms. Localized regional flood kills a lot of people? Levy breaks, abnormal seasonal precipitation, etc. The fact that we have never been able to demonstrate supernature (i.e. anything that exists outside of the natural universe) is a good indication that it doesn't exist. If a god would require supernatural causes to define either it or its actions then supernature must first be identified. Secondly as I posted earlier in the thread "Science." We can explain the universe in natural terms and even assign natural causes to the stories of the Bible, Torah and Qu'ran.

If one wants to make the argument that supernature cannot be identified by scientific processes or that god cannot be identified through scientific processes then that person has just forfeited the right to a reasonable and rational argument. Evidence exists within the natural world so we must use the natural world to define what exists within it.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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27-07-2011, 05:29 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2011 05:33 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
(25-07-2011 06:59 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  It appears to me that proof of god's non existence, based on how the concept is defined-----perfectly good, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent etc (Christian) is indicated, at the finite level, in keeping with our evolved cognative abilities by the world of suffering and pain we find ourselves inhabiting.

Ah, the 2400 yo Problem of Evil. Christians still can't decide whether to give up omnipotence, omniscience or omnibenevolence. It hurts their tiny minds.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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27-07-2011, 05:56 PM
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
(27-07-2011 06:11 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "Ehhh. This just seems like a lot of words which don't actually say anything, mixed with picking on use of language while ignoring the underlying argument. "

Wrong. I took apart your "underlying argument", piece by piece, and you replied to none of it. If that is what passes for argument here, I may be in the wrong place.
If the elements of your premise are invalid, then your conclusion is invalid, and the "argument" is refuted. The fact is, you appear to know nothing about what you are talking.

You didn't address the argument at all. You just picked on my use of language with a pedantic attempt to appear more inteligent than me to people looking in, but in truth you never refuted my argument, which I specified to the christian god for sake of ease, or gave me anything to give back to you other than to point out that you were using some sort of poetics to give the illusion of adressing my original post. You then reply again trying to bolster your impressive, but ultimately empty first reply while also attacking me and the surrounding community on a near-personal level.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to do here. The changing definitons of words over time due to language drift does not somehow render an argument writen in modern English invalid simply because of the language it's writen in.

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28-07-2011, 02:04 AM
RE: I Need Solid Proof God Doesn't Exist
(27-07-2011 05:29 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(25-07-2011 06:59 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  It appears to me that proof of god's non existence, based on how the concept is defined-----perfectly good, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent etc (Christian) is indicated, at the finite level, in keeping with our evolved cognative abilities by the world of suffering and pain we find ourselves inhabiting.

Ah, the 2400 yo Problem of Evil. Christians still can't decide whether to give up omnipotence, omniscience or omnibenevolence. It hurts their tiny minds.

Sometimes they just don't care though.

The God excuse: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument. "God did it." Anything we can't describe must have come from God. - George Carlin

Whenever I'm asked "What if you're wrong?", I always show the asker this video: http://youtu.be/iClejS8vWjo Screw Pascal's wager.
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