I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
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11-04-2012, 03:02 PM
 
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(11-04-2012 02:55 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Nobody in the bible could have possibly been insane if they never existed in the first place.

That's what you believe? That no one in the Bible ever existed?
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11-04-2012, 03:04 PM
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(11-04-2012 03:02 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(11-04-2012 02:55 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Nobody in the bible could have possibly been insane if they never existed in the first place.

That's what you believe? That no one in the Bible ever existed?
Actually, it was said more in jest. There are stories of real people in there like kings and such. People like Moses, Abraham, Noah... HELL no.
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11-04-2012, 03:35 PM
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(06-04-2012 02:15 PM)Egor Wrote:  I think atheists, at least the atheists that hang out in forums such as this, know full well that God exists. I don’t think they’re ignorant at all. In fact, I’ll bet they pray more often and more directly than most so-called religious people do. Granted, their prayers are probably nothing more than insults and complaining, but I’ll bet they pray all the same.

Most atheists seem to be in rebellion against religion. They think God must be the Christian or Islamic or Jewish notions of God, and they think they are enlightened because they reject those notions. But how enlightened can that be? I mean seriously, of course God can’t be like that anymore than He is like Zeus or Apollo. These primitive revelations of God are just that—primitive, so how long can one dispute them before seeming to be primitive themselves?

I’ve always found atheism to be a kind of half-baked rationality. In other words to deny the existence of God, they have to ignore certain obvious things: Why is there something rather than nothing? How can consciousness arise from unconscious matter? The universe began, but what began it? And why is Jesus Christ such an enduring presence in the consciousness of humanity? Why do we seem to understand perfection with no examples of it? Why is there order in what seems to be a chaotic quantum reality? An atheist will tell you they just don’t know; can’t know; one day will know, or some other dodge. And yet, atheists are more aware of the arguments for God’s existence than the religious are. They know there’s only one explanation.

I think atheists are looking for faith, and the only way they can come close to feeling it is to deny it and have others argue against them. But they will still be held responsible in the end, because faith is a two-way street. God reaches out to you, and you, in turn, reach out to God.
There is only exactly one thing I am certain exists, and that is myself. What I am, I don't know, but I know 'I am' because I think, and I could not think if I was not. I receive signal data that seems to indicate an organized world, however it is not a part of me, so I do not know if what I sense is real, or wrong, or my imagination. I choose to believe it is an organized world. I choose to believe that knowledge which predicts what I sense is more useful than knowledge which does not predict anything.
1st Assumption: There is a Universe.
2nd Assumption: I am able to know something about it.
3rd Assumption: Models with predictive capability is more useful than those without.
(P.S. thank you Thunderf00t for the words to what we all already know).

Based on the knowledge I assume to be accurate threw observations and the observations of others who seem to predict accurately the universe around me (which I'm assuming exists to begin with), I have come to the conclusion that if there is gods, the first is the universe for allowing me to exist inside of it, all the sun's that died so the atoms which make up the molecules of my body could exist, our star for providing energy for complex life to evolve, and our planet for providing the platform for me to exist upon. These entities are not sentient, they have no mind, they did not consciously manipulate anything for me to be here, but if they did not exist, I suppose neither would I.

The truth of the matter is, we do not know for certain if some higher being caused our universe to exist. I do know however, that of all the knowledge we have, there does not need to be a higher being. Maybe someday we will uncover evidence who's actual conclusion is in fact evidence of a 'divine' mover. Maybe in fact we are living in the micro-second explosion of two quarks in a super-colider. The simple fact is, it is too early to draw any conclusions. As for the god of Abraham, Moses, and indeed any other religions god you wish to put forward, they are at best demonstrably wrong. If this is offensive, or you disagree, find me evidence that leads credence to these assumptions. In order to save everyone a lot of time pointlessly pondering points that have no bearing anywhere, I implore you to first look at all the arguments that have already been made in supposition of a god or gods. One last quick tip before I let you do your thing, if you are done researching in under a year, do everyone a favor and go ahead and stamp unlikely on your paper.
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11-04-2012, 04:19 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2012 04:25 PM by Stevil.)
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(11-04-2012 02:45 PM)Egor Wrote:  Actually, legitimate religious experience is excluded from any consideration of mental illness.
It would be interesting to know how a third party can assess something as having been a legitimate religious experience. If they could, you would have an objective proof of the existence of god/s.
Quote:Otherwise, every religious person would be considered psychotic.
There would be a case to suggest that all religious people are delusional, however it seems they have found safety in numbers. Most religious people compartmentalise their beliefs and hence can function "normally" in the physical world, aside from the odd harmless quirky prayer here and there.
Quote:You
think because you hear someone say that they talk to God and God talks
to them that they are insane
I'm not a psychiatrist. I would think a psychiatrist would need to meet a person in order to evaluate their state of mind, in on online forum it is difficult, but I have some other clues with regards to Egor.
Certainly, most religious people don't have regular two-way conversations with their deity. You have professed in the past that your deity was discussing with you how you should respond to one of my posts, I find this very interesting and suspect. I do not think you are lying. I think you truly believe this to be the case. I can't prove to you that your god is not talking to you, but I suspect that the vast amount of people whom hear regular voices inside their heads have some sort of mental issue. I bet it sounds very real to you, I bet it would be hard for you to think it is not real. If you are wrong, and most people whom hear voices are, then you have a form of schizophrenia.

You have rewritten the bible. This is an extreme thing for a person to do. You believe you were specially chosen by god to rewrite the bible, this fits exactly with megolomania and theiomania. Most theists do not write their own scriptures, but I can understand an enthusiastic theist believing that if Moses and Abraham can be special in god's eye then the same thing can happen to themselves. There are a few people in recent times that believe themselves to be this kind of special. It is an inevitable byproduct of religion but does go beyond "legitimate religious experience" and into the realms of "special" and by this I do mean mental disorder, and of course you won't believe me. People whom are "special", don't know it.

Egor's ego. It seems to me that you have a massive ego, far greater than anyone I have ever conversed with in person or online. Megalomaniacs have large egos.

Anyway, like I say, I am not a psychiatrist, and I have never met you. I have seen clues that make me think you are "special", I have never thought this about anyone before. Certainly not someone that I have interacted with before. I know you just think you are normal but have a special relationship with god. I know it would be hard for me to convince you to get a qualified opinion from a qualified professional. I don't say this to be mean to you Egor. I don't hate you.


Quote:...but that would make the Gospel writers
insane, Jesus insane, every prophet of the Old Testament insane, Moses
insane, Joseph Smith insane, and everyone who's ever given a prophecy to
someone in a Pentecostal church, they would all be insane as well.

Some of these people may not have ever existed. Jesus, Moses, Abraham and other characters in the bible books might just be fictional characters. The Moses character ordered his army to rape little virgin girls, this sounds insane to me. Jesus thought he was god, this sounds insane to me.
There are many people today that think they are god or the second coming of Jesus. Many people who profess to be a prophet of god, e.g. Harold Camping,
Ronald Weinland, Tynetta Muhammad, James Harmston, ...

Quote:And when we assess them, we document their religion and whether or not
they go to church.

Realise that you are a nurse, not a qualified doctor. Even doctors shouldn't attempt to diagnose themselves.

Quote:For instance, one woman who was detoxing from
meth had a very sick week. Later, when she was better she came to the
conclusion that God let her go through her life as it was becasue He had
made her strong enough to handle it, survive it, and then go out and
help others. I really hope that she did. That is a very mentally healthy
attitude towards religion, as compared to someone shouting that demons
are everywhere and that they have been specially sent to cast them out.

See, now you know something you didn't know before! Thumbsup

This example is very different to your own example. You believe you are special, chosen by god to rewrite the bible, you think god talks to you about trivial matters.
Most people that start new churches, new religions, they already have a sizable congregation, they have a flock of people whom believe in them, possibly because they are very charming and have strong leadership qualities that draw people to them. You don't have a following, it is you and your wife, you have rewritten the bible and are trying to get people to buy it. God doesn't seem to have given you the special qualities required to influence people in the masses.

Quote:And as for the whole megalomania thing, I don't have any delusions that I am better than anyone else or special.

I think you do think you are special and better than others (especially atheists)
You think you have been specially chosen by god to rewrite the bible.
You often put us atheists down, telling us that we are maggots and will die out.

Quote:I think you think you are less
than me and you turn that around and acuse me of setting myself above
you.

You aren't the yard stick by which I measure myself by. I am special because I am me, not because I am better than others.
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11-04-2012, 04:33 PM
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(11-04-2012 04:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Egor's ego. It seems to me that you have a massive ego, far greater than anyone I have ever conversed with in person or online. Megalomaniacs have large egos.
Conito Egor Sum, perhaps Tongue.

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11-04-2012, 09:16 PM
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
Quote:Actually, legitimate religious experience is excluded from any consideration of mental illness.

Most people religious experience ends with belief in a god or higher being that they occasionally see higher glimpses of in the form of occasional brief dialog or a deeper part of self.

Your not claiming anything near normal religious experience rather then asserting that Jesus put a new book in your head and gave you special tools to determine what is true about the gospels and what is false.

Also you are asserting that not only is the creator of the universe going to choose you (who has no real public voice like the pope or us president would) to spread his new message.

On top of this you assert that you have seen the future and Atheism will swallow the Christians before you swallow us. But if this was true don't you think you would have seen at least one of the dozens of Atheists you interact with on this forum convert?

Face if your a nutjob. I've said it about 4 times already and I stand by it.

If your ever in Canada please do look me up. I would love to ensure your taken into custody for treatment.
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11-04-2012, 09:55 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2012 10:00 PM by Humakt.)
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(11-04-2012 09:16 PM)Godless Wrote:  
Quote:Actually, legitimate religious experience is excluded from any consideration of mental illness.

Most people religious experience ends with belief in a god or higher being that they occasionally see higher glimpses of in the form of occasional brief dialog or a deeper part of self.

Your not claiming anything near normal religious experience rather then asserting that Jesus put a new book in your head and gave you special tools to determine what is true about the gospels and what is false.

Also you are asserting that not only is the creator of the universe going to choose you (who has no real public voice like the pope or us president would) to spread his new message.

On top of this you assert that you have seen the future and Atheism will swallow the Christians before you swallow us. But if this was true don't you think you would have seen at least one of the dozens of Atheists you interact with on this forum convert?

Face if your a nutjob. I've said it about 4 times already and I stand by it.

If your ever in Canada please do look me up. I would love to ensure your taken into custody for treatment.
So what your basically saying is the amish are nuts, because most religo's arent amish? What does majority consensus have to do with legitimate belief. Whats the percentage of the US that believes in God, I know your Canadian eh, but Im just gonna gloss over that eh, just for the hell of it eh, oh yes the majority. What you dont agree with the consensus - but your special right you aint nuts cause your right.

What he believes is compeletly irrelevant, if he believes it in a religious way which he clearly does he's legitimatly allowed to, more over his right to do is constitutionally protected.

"Also you are asserting that not only is the creator of the universe
going to choose you (who has no real public voice like the pope or us
president would) to spread his new message."

Thats Gods schtik, God always picks the Egor's to be his mouth piece, so the fact you think he's lonely nut job only makes him look better suited for the part.

Also, he's asserted at least once that no one can join his religion or at least expressed the opinion that he doesnt think others can and we each have to find our way to religion. Given the ever increasing number of denominations of the one true faith V2.02c, the perdiction that everyone has to have there own religion might be the closest he has gotten to actually drawing a conclusion on the evidence at hand. (No offence intended, Egor)

Ive only asked if you where nuts, but I did call you an american which is infinitly worse than repeatedly calling you nuts eh.

Hope your having a lovely time, eh.

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12-04-2012, 02:04 AM
 
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(11-04-2012 04:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm not a psychiatrist. I would think a psychiatrist would need to meet a person in order to evaluate their state of mind, in on online forum it is difficult, but I have some other clues with regards to Egor.
Certainly, most religious people don't have regular two-way conversations with their deity. You have professed in the past that your deity was discussing with you how you should respond to one of my posts, I find this very interesting and suspect. I do not think you are lying. I think you truly believe this to be the case. I can't prove to you that your god is not talking to you, but I suspect that the vast amount of people whom hear regular voices inside their heads have some sort of mental issue. I bet it sounds very real to you, I bet it would be hard for you to think it is not real. If you are wrong, and most people whom hear voices are, then you have a form of schizophrenia.

You have rewritten the bible. This is an extreme thing for a person to do. You believe you were specially chosen by god to rewrite the bible, this fits exactly with megolomania and theiomania. Most theists do not write their own scriptures, but I can understand an enthusiastic theist believing that if Moses and Abraham can be special in god's eye then the same thing can happen to themselves. There are a few people in recent times that believe themselves to be this kind of special. It is an inevitable byproduct of religion but does go beyond "legitimate religious experience" and into the realms of "special" and by this I do mean mental disorder, and of course you won't believe me. People whom are "special", don't know it.

Egor's ego. It seems to me that you have a massive ego, far greater than anyone I have ever conversed with in person or online. Megalomaniacs have large egos.

Anyway, like I say, I am not a psychiatrist, and I have never met you. I have seen clues that make me think you are "special", I have never thought this about anyone before. Certainly not someone that I have interacted with before. I know you just think you are normal but have a special relationship with god. I know it would be hard for me to convince you to get a qualified opinion from a qualified professional. I don't say this to be mean to you Egor. I don't hate you.

Whatever. Consider me nuts. I don't give a shit. Really. And I don't hate you, either. You're the one who called me special, not me.


Quote:Jesus thought he was god, this sounds insane to me.

Okay, now I feel much better. See, if you think Jesus Christ was insane, then I want to be considered insane by you. In fact, unless you consider me insane--you consider me insane--then I'm probably not living right.


Quote:There are many people today that think they are god or the second coming of Jesus. Many people who profess to be a prophet of god, e.g. Harold Camping,
Ronald Weinland, Tynetta Muhammad, James Harmston, ...

Wait a minute. I thought Jesus was simply insane in your opinion. So how can these people be insane by considering themselves to be Jesus Christ? Okay, I see the look on your face Blink let me rephrase: If these people are insane because they think they are special because they think they are the second coming of Christ, how then can you call Christ insane when you hold him in high enough regard to consider others insane for thinking they are him? No You may have to read that a couple of times.

Quote:Realise that you are a nurse, not a qualified doctor. Even doctors shouldn't attempt to diagnose themselves.

When did I ever say I was diagnosing anyone? Just cut and paste it, Stevil, and I'll stand corrected, because in my opinion, you're starting to lose a lot of credibility, and you're really starting to sound like a rube with that fake soft-spoken intellectualeez. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.






Quote:This example is very different to your own example. You believe you are special, chosen by god to rewrite the bible, you think god talks to you about trivial matters.
Most people that start new churches, new religions, they already have a sizable congregation, they have a flock of people whom believe in them, possibly because they are very charming and have strong leadership qualities that draw people to them. You don't have a following, it is you and your wife, you have rewritten the bible and are trying to get people to buy it. God doesn't seem to have given you the special qualities required to influence people in the masses.


You're right: I'm not a leader. Not at all. And you know what? If a person wants a real relationship with God, they only have one leader, one shepherd, one teacher--Jesus Christ. You seem to think it would be better if I formed a cult.

Quote:I think you do think you are special and better than others (especially atheists)
You think you have been specially chosen by god to rewrite the bible.
You often put us atheists down, telling us that we are maggots and will die out.


I already told you I don't think I'm special. You can say I think whatever you want to say I think. But now I think you think you have special powers of ESP. What I do think is that God uses everyone for a specific purpose in Christ.

Quote:You aren't the yard stick by which I measure myself by. I am special because I am me, not because I am better than others.

So, you think you are special? Hmmm... Damn, but that table makes a loud noise when it turns, doesn't it?
(11-04-2012 03:35 PM)Vipermagi Wrote:  
(06-04-2012 02:15 PM)Egor Wrote:  I think atheists, at least the atheists that hang out in forums such as this, know full well that God exists. I don’t think they’re ignorant at all. In fact, I’ll bet they pray more often and more directly than most so-called religious people do. Granted, their prayers are probably nothing more than insults and complaining, but I’ll bet they pray all the same.

Most atheists seem to be in rebellion against religion. They think God must be the Christian or Islamic or Jewish notions of God, and they think they are enlightened because they reject those notions. But how enlightened can that be? I mean seriously, of course God can’t be like that anymore than He is like Zeus or Apollo. These primitive revelations of God are just that—primitive, so how long can one dispute them before seeming to be primitive themselves?

I’ve always found atheism to be a kind of half-baked rationality. In other words to deny the existence of God, they have to ignore certain obvious things: Why is there something rather than nothing? How can consciousness arise from unconscious matter? The universe began, but what began it? And why is Jesus Christ such an enduring presence in the consciousness of humanity? Why do we seem to understand perfection with no examples of it? Why is there order in what seems to be a chaotic quantum reality? An atheist will tell you they just don’t know; can’t know; one day will know, or some other dodge. And yet, atheists are more aware of the arguments for God’s existence than the religious are. They know there’s only one explanation.

I think atheists are looking for faith, and the only way they can come close to feeling it is to deny it and have others argue against them. But they will still be held responsible in the end, because faith is a two-way street. God reaches out to you, and you, in turn, reach out to God.
There is only exactly one thing I am certain exists, and that is myself. What I am, I don't know, but I know 'I am' because I think, and I could not think if I was not. I receive signal data that seems to indicate an organized world, however it is not a part of me, so I do not know if what I sense is real, or wrong, or my imagination. I choose to believe it is an organized world. I choose to believe that knowledge which predicts what I sense is more useful than knowledge which does not predict anything.
1st Assumption: There is a Universe.
2nd Assumption: I am able to know something about it.
3rd Assumption: Models with predictive capability is more useful than those without.
(P.S. thank you Thunderf00t for the words to what we all already know).

Based on the knowledge I assume to be accurate threw observations and the observations of others who seem to predict accurately the universe around me (which I'm assuming exists to begin with), I have come to the conclusion that if there is gods, the first is the universe for allowing me to exist inside of it, all the sun's that died so the atoms which make up the molecules of my body could exist, our star for providing energy for complex life to evolve, and our planet for providing the platform for me to exist upon. These entities are not sentient, they have no mind, they did not consciously manipulate anything for me to be here, but if they did not exist, I suppose neither would I.

The truth of the matter is, we do not know for certain if some higher being caused our universe to exist. I do know however, that of all the knowledge we have, there does not need to be a higher being. Maybe someday we will uncover evidence who's actual conclusion is in fact evidence of a 'divine' mover. Maybe in fact we are living in the micro-second explosion of two quarks in a super-colider. The simple fact is, it is too early to draw any conclusions. As for the god of Abraham, Moses, and indeed any other religions god you wish to put forward, they are at best demonstrably wrong. If this is offensive, or you disagree, find me evidence that leads credence to these assumptions. In order to save everyone a lot of time pointlessly pondering points that have no bearing anywhere, I implore you to first look at all the arguments that have already been made in supposition of a god or gods. One last quick tip before I let you do your thing, if you are done researching in under a year, do everyone a favor and go ahead and stamp unlikely on your paper.

I get it: You're an atheist.
(11-04-2012 09:16 PM)Godless Wrote:  Face if your a nutjob. I've said it about 4 times already and I stand by it.

Good Lord, just from a craftsman's point of view, let me help you with that insult:

Face if [it] your [you're] a nutjob [nut job]. I've said it about 4 [four] times already [,] and I stand by it.
(11-04-2012 09:55 PM)Humakt Wrote:  Thats Gods schtik, God always picks the Egor's to be his mouth piece, so the fact you think he's lonely nut job only makes him look better suited for the part.

Damn. Now, that's a good point. Unsure

Quote:Also, he's asserted at least once that no one can join his religion or at least expressed the opinion that he doesnt think others can and we each have to find our way to religion. Given the ever increasing number of denominations of the one true faith V2.02c, the perdiction that everyone has to have there own religion might be the closest he has gotten to actually drawing a conclusion on the evidence at hand. (No offence intended, Egor)

Weeping None taken...just give me a minute.
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12-04-2012, 04:16 AM
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(12-04-2012 02:04 AM)Egor Wrote:  
Quote:Jesus thought he was god, this sounds insane to me.
Okay, now I feel much better. See, if you think Jesus Christ was insane, then I want to be considered insane by you. In fact, unless you consider me insane--you consider me insane--then I'm probably not living right.
If the stories of the bible were true, if Jesus existed then he proved to himself and others that he was god by performing miracles.
Without the miracles, he could easily have been considered insane.

Have you performed miracles?
You are in a much more difficult position than Jesus.
You don't profess to be Jesus (not yet anyway) so you don't have the power to perform miracles (well you haven't thus far stated that you can). But you do profess to be god's chosen one. Out of 7 billion people on the earth, god has chosen you, Egor, to rewrite the bible, the bible that is somewhere between 1,000 - 2,000 years old. God has decided that the bible has fulfilled its purpose and Egor is now chosen to rewrite it. You profess that god has told you his plan, that Christianity will die off, that the 2 billion Christians of today will be no more and eventually they will follow Egor's book and be followers of Egor's new religion, the one that will replace the 2,000 year old Christian religion.
This is pretty significant stuff.
If it is true, then Egor is the most significant profit that there has ever been, besides Jesus Christ of course. More significant than Abraham, or Moses. Egor, if what you say is the truth then you are very special indeed.
If what you say is imagined nonsense then you are "special" and would benefit from professional help.

Unfortunately for you, not being Jesus, you cannot perform a miracle in order to prove to yourself that you are the most special human in god's eyes (not counting Jesus).
Quote:Wait
a minute. I thought Jesus was simply insane in your opinion. So how can
these people be insane by considering themselves to be Jesus Christ?
Okay, I see the look on your face Blink
let me rephrase: If these people are insane because they think they are
special because they think they are the second coming of Christ, how
then can you call Christ insane when you hold him in high enough regard
to consider others insane for thinking they are him? No You may have to read that a couple of times.
You are indeed right to suggest I read through your logic a couple of times. It makes no sense.

If a person told me that they are the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler, I certainly would consider them insane, this is despite the fact that I also consider Adolf Hitler to be insane.



Quote:
Quote:Realise that you are a nurse, not a qualified doctor. Even doctors shouldn't attempt to diagnose themselves.
When
did I ever say I was diagnosing anyone? Just cut and paste it, Stevil,
and I'll stand corrected
"And when we assess them, we document their religion and whether or not they go to church."
I assume you are standing right now.

Quote:You're
right: I'm not a leader. Not at all. And you know what? If a person
wants a real relationship with God, they only have one leader, one
shepherd, one teacher--Jesus Christ. You seem to think it would be
better if I formed a cult.
I consider all religions to be cults.
I am just not sure how your own religion is going to take off without a leader quality person driving it. But I guess that doesn't have to be you.
Quote:I
already told you I don't think I'm special. You can say I think
whatever you want to say I think. But now I think you think you have
special powers of ESP. What I do think is that God uses everyone for a
specific purpose in Christ.
Not ESP, just going by what you have told me. That god talks to you all the time, even on trivial matters.
That god chose you to replace Christianity. This would make you very special indeed, if it were true.



Quote:
Quote:You aren't the yard stick by which I measure myself by. I am special because I am me, not because I am better than others.
So, you think you are special? Hmmm... Damn, but that table makes a loud noise when it turns, doesn't it?
Special as in I am a unique individual as is everyone else, we are all special in our own way.
Not "special" as in I have an extra special relationship with a god and have been chosen to replace Christianity (if that were not true, it would be insane)
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15-04-2012, 03:44 AM
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
If I asked myself, How much more wrong the OP's theory could be, The answer would be none, None Wronger.
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