I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
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07-04-2012, 03:07 AM
 
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(06-04-2012 02:29 PM)morondog Wrote:  We (or at least I, since I can't speak for all of us) genuinely don't believe in God though - I genuinely don't go to bed at night thinking "shit I hope God isn't too pissed off with me that I keep denying him like this".



I'll bet you think more about God than most religious people do. And I'll bet you pray more than most people who go to church. I notice you don't deny it. Now you probably will, but when given the opportunity you brought up a scenario I never mentioned in my post.
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07-04-2012, 03:17 AM
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(07-04-2012 03:07 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(06-04-2012 02:29 PM)morondog Wrote:  We (or at least I, since I can't speak for all of us) genuinely don't believe in God though - I genuinely don't go to bed at night thinking "shit I hope God isn't too pissed off with me that I keep denying him like this".
I'll bet you think more about God than most religious people do. And I'll bet you pray more than most people who go to church. I notice you don't deny it. Now you probably will, but when given the opportunity you brought up a scenario I never mentioned in my post.
Um... you realise that no matter what I say to you you now will say "oh he's just saying that but really he believes X"? Seems a bit crazy to be telling me what I believe? I don't play games, I don't pretend one thing then do another. When I say something to you you can rest assured it was exactly what I was thinking at the time.

So no lie, I do not believe that God as described by you and others exists.

Also in the "examples of prayer atheists might say" you said it would be mostly insults and rage and whatnot? I mean seriously, I don't pick up the phone and insult people, why if I believed in God would I (a) deny it (b) secretly ring him up all the time to yell at him?

Look Egor, you don't know what goes on in my head. You can't read my mind. The only way you can tell is (a) how I act and (b) what I myself tell you. It seems that somehow you have managed to convince yourself that how I act is as someone hiding my belief in God - well, you've only got my word for it, but I assure you that is not the case.
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07-04-2012, 03:34 AM
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(07-04-2012 03:01 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(06-04-2012 10:10 PM)le_procyon Wrote:  If you hear voices, no matter how you call them, you might have a serious problem.


Ya never know.

(07-04-2012 01:51 AM)Stevil Wrote:  And I bet you don't either Egor, I also bet you wear clothes made of more than one cloth.
Nobody obeys the Christian god, not even Egor.


Given that I'm not a Christian and don't follow the Holy Bible, I'd say you're right. But keep in mind there aren't different gods. There's only one God, but there are many interpretations of Him.

(07-04-2012 02:21 AM)Logisch Wrote:  You know, after re-reading this whole thing I wonder if this is another one of egor's discussions for reviews and he's just curious of the responses he'll get lol.


Yes, I am curious as to the responses I will get. Isn't that why we post.
Fair enough, Egor. In this case, since I see you are interested in the answers I will sincerely answer your post for you and will revoke my previous sarcasm since you are sincere in your curiosity.

Egor Wrote:I think atheists, at least the atheists that hang out in forums such as this, know full well that God exists. I don’t think they’re ignorant at all. In fact, I’ll bet they pray more often and more directly than most so-called religious people do. Granted, their prayers are probably nothing more than insults and complaining, but I’ll bet they pray all the same.

I cannot speak for all Atheists. I'm one guy out of many people. However, I can tell you that I hold no belief in a deity. I remain open minded, should evidence present itself, I would be willing to change my mind. But again, I don't believe in one and therefore do not pray to one. I did when I was a Christian, but that was a long time ago. The dictionary definition of prayer is an expression of thanks or request for assistance from a God or deity. I request no help, hope of none and ask of nothing nor thank nothing towards any god or gods.

Egor Wrote:Most atheists seem to be in rebellion against religion. They think God must be the Christian or Islamic or Jewish notions of God, and they think they are enlightened because they reject those notions. But how enlightened can that be? I mean seriously, of course God can’t be like that anymore than He is like Zeus or Apollo. These primitive revelations of God are just that—primitive, so how long can one dispute them before seeming to be primitive themselves?

I'll be honest. When I look back in my life as a Christian and the way I saw the world it was pretty much this:

- Life sucks, people are horrible.
- Put up with the bull and be a good guy and I'll have the last laugh when I'm in heaven and they're in hell.
- Science is subjective and isn't really true, people just can't see the reason because they don't have god.
- Whether people like it or not, I'm going to preach the word of god, they NEED god. I feel sorry for those that don't.

Now... I was raised in a really religious house. I was sent to a Christian school and I even went to the extent of going through my personal belongings and burning the things that I deemed were not "Christ like". I tried never to swear (not kidding, shit was not in my vocabulary at the time) and I could not for the life of me understand why others didn't want to be like me, think like me and live life through Christ, it seemed awesome.

When I became an atheist many years later and got back into my love for astronomy, I started realizing there was so many things I was missing out on because I refused to look into them for fear of doubt of my religion. I didn't want to doubt god for a moment, I didn't want to give the chance of it and my faith was crazy good. When I realized that those things were holding me back from the way I see things now, I felt genuinely angry. I felt upset. Disappointed. The reason for this is because I felt like I spent x years living under a rock with blinders over my eyes.

I don't think this makes me better than those who are religious. But when I am not afraid to look at things with an open mind, analyze things controversial to my point of view and be able to go "Yeah ok, that's an interesting point" rather than "NO, it can't be, because god." it makes me happy that I feel I've made that stride.

Again I will say - This doesn't make me better than others. If someone wants to believe something and they believe it so strongly they think their life is fantastic then great, good for them, that's fine. I would be lying though if I said I didn't feel more free than I ever have, happy and open minded than ever. In fact, I've even gone back to my friends that I was a total asshole about my religion years past and apologized and said - "If I caused you grief over that... I am truly sorry."

Egor Wrote:I’ve always found atheism to be a kind of half-baked rationality. In other words to deny the existence of God, they have to ignore certain obvious things: Why is there something rather than nothing? How can consciousness arise from unconscious matter? The universe began, but what began it? And why is Jesus Christ such an enduring presence in the consciousness of humanity? Why do we seem to understand perfection with no examples of it? Why is there order in what seems to be a chaotic quantum reality? An atheist will tell you they just don’t know; can’t know; one day will know, or some other dodge. And yet, atheists are more aware of the arguments for God’s existence than the religious are. They know there’s only one explanation.

Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint.

Why is there something rather than nothing? Well... why would god get to be before the nothing and where would have come from, why would he be exempt to the same questions? Consciousness is nothing more than the abilities of neural contact, correlation, state of senses and ability to react upon them and we know the brain is nothing more than a complex biological computer. That said, no one has the answers of what exactly it is at the very core though, but we're making good progress. We've even dug into free will a good bit and shown that when you think you're making a real time decision, your brain has been computing it for almost 6 seconds, this goes into everything from your instincts, limbic system as well as real time conscious decision making. Can I define why we understand things without knowing what they are yet? No, because we don't have all the answers either. To answer the last part of your question, we are generally more aware of religions, their beliefs because we tend to study it more than the religious. This is an interesting thing to me because I think a lot of theists think this is weird. Realistically, I think a lot of that boils down to the fact that we spend a lot of time defending it and we find it intriguing as to the history of religion. At least I do.

I've spent a lot of time going through various mythology and different religions and reading up on them. The more I read up on them the more history I learned and I found it really entertaining. So I guess you could say to some degree, it becomes a hobby.

Does it mean I believe in a god because I find it interesting? No. It just means it's interesting to me.

Egor Wrote:I think atheists are looking for faith, and the only way they can come close to feeling it is to deny it and have others argue against them. But they will still be held responsible in the end, because faith is a two-way street. God reaches out to you, and you, in turn, reach out to God.

Again I can only speak on my behalf and not other atheists. I'm sure out there somewhere is a lurking atheist who says he/she is an atheist, still actually believes, but wants a reason to be an atheist and is looking for some reason to validate his/her beliefs.

Then again, don't we all look for reasons to validate our arguments? Don't we all research things? Don't we all want to confirm that indeed things are valid?

I think it depends on the person. Specifically, I don't look at religion to look for a reason for god. I research religion because I find it fascinating. To be specific, I don't think that the abrahamic gods are real. If they were, well, I think the world would suck pretty bad and so would the afterlife for pretty much all of mankind.

I enjoy what was said in a video I often visit when I'm in an astronomy mood:

Quote:Maybe you need to run. Away from the mosque. Away from the church. Away from the priests and the Imams. Away from the Books to have any chance of finding God. Squeeze a fraction of a galaxy into your mind and then you’ll have a better idea of what you’re looking for.

I really feel like if we are to find what we seek, whether it be how life began from a scientific view, or if someone is looking to define what god would even be in the first place... understanding what is really out there would be the most crucial. I truly believe that religion is man made, primitive, old and a poor representation of the world outside. The universe is vast, amazing, huge, complex, interesting and still to much degree.... a mystery. I would much rather involve my life in finding out what it is, why, how and understanding it than worrying about if there is a god or not. If by some chance the conclusive evidence ends up saying: "Hey guys guess what!" then I'll go "Hot damn looks like I was wrong!" and continue staring at the sky.

Based off my experience thus far, I doubt that will happen. But since I also don't believe in the abrahamic gods, or zeuss, or anything of that sort, I plan on enjoying my one life that I get, my one shot at life, to the fullest extent.

Regardless... It is what it is.
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07-04-2012, 03:40 AM
 
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(06-04-2012 03:58 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  That is correct. Atheism is the rejection of religious beliefs, so by definition, they HAVE to be against religion. They don't think God is anything, sloppy wording there. Before you can attribute characteristics to something, you would have to presume its existence first. We reject the concepts that we have been presented with. That doesn't mean we will necessarily reject all future definitions of God, though we may try to change the name, since the word God already has several definitions and doesn't need another one.

I think God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness. There's a different definition.

Quote:
Why would you assume there would be nothing rather than something? Maybe "nothing" is a meaningless term, since there has always been something.

Well, I would agree. There always has been something and if we think about it we will come to the realization that that something is God. But if you mean a material entity, it is pretty clear that all matter is contingent. Which means it ultimately must have a cause in that which is not contingent and has always existed.

Quote:
Consciousness is not a magical force, it's simply an evolution of sensory perception and chemical balances.

That's a statement of faith isn't it?


Quote:
IF the universe had a beginning, we don't know what caused it. But not knowing an answer to something doesn't give you license to make up your own unsupported answers for cognitive closure.

Then you have to reject the ideas of dark energy and dark matter. And the problem with saying we don't know what caused it is that if we only use scientific reasoning, we will never know what caused it. The cause of the universe necessarily is outside the investigative province of science.
[/quote]


Quote:Two words. Cultural. Ignorance. "Humanity" is not encapsulated by America and Britain. There are 4 billion people in Asia alone who have never even heard of your Jesus Christ.

Don't forget South America, Central America, Europe, Australia, the Philipines, and a bunch of other places. And I realize there are other countries who don't follow Jesus Christ, but they should. And let's face it, Britain and the U.S. and Europe are pretty much the light of the world.


Quote: Because "perfection" is a metaphysical term. Just because you can conceive of something, does not imply its existence. And if you say, "existence is a requisite of perfection," I have to then ask, for all the turtles of the world, is there a perfect turtle, who exists outside this realm and claims the status of deity turtle?


If you're talking about the ontological argument, that only applies to God, or a being of which no greater can be conceived. And existence would have to be a quality of that being. If such a being is possible, then such a being must exist necessarily. But that only applies to a being like God, not to turtles.

Quote: Because order exists in chaos, hence the entire premise of chaos math. There is predictability in randomness. And what "order" are you referring to? We are on a giant rock, flying around an even bigger magnetic fireball for a brief period of time until we fly off into space, where there is sub zero temperatures and no oxygen. Point being? We are alive for about 1/1000000000000000000000 of the lifespan of the universe and then we will all die. Look at the bigger picture.


I'm talking about an oak leaf. I'm talking about the blood clotting cascade in mammals. Order does not exist in true chaos, and maybe there isn't actually chaos anywhere.


Quote: An atheist will tell you that we can't know until evidence presents itself. We are aware of the arguments because theists enjoy preaching and proselytizing to us every chance they get. And they tend to use the same, tired, already been debunked 1000 times arguments.


You like to say the cosmological argument has been debunked, but it hasn't, nor has the ontological argument, nor has the teleological argument. As for evidence, you never accept any evidence. You won't even state what evidence you want. Or when you do it's some adolescent idea of a miracle.


Quote: If atheists were looking for faith, they would find it. It's incredibly easy to shut out the voice of reason and just believe whatever you want. I can literally conceive of a god that I would like to follow, convince myself that he exists, then whenever someone tries to debate me, use vague terms and circular logic to deter him. Of course Thuul exists, if he didn't, then where did we come from? The only logical answer for any of these hard questions is Thuul. Now praise him or spend eternity in the Land of Razorblades where you will be sliced forever.

But you wouldn't really be making up a new god. You'd only be making up a new interpretation of the only God that exists. And maybe you should. But there are certain people who will never ever believe in God--they can't believe in God. Maybe you're one of them.

Today I was working on my book, and I was stuck on this chapter I was trying to write. I went outside for a walk and prayed about it and God told me to cut it. Just cut it. I came back and cut it from the outline and it all became suddenly clear how the chapters I had already wrote would fit into this new perfect outline. I didn't know that was going to happen until I actually came back and cut it out. I thought I was just going to cut the one chapter and continue the way I had been going, but a whole new order emerged. And I had prayed earnestly a few days ago that God would help me with this book. Turns out, he did, and today I jumped ahead about 4 months in the progress of this manuscript. This kind of prayer works for me all the time.

Now, I would call that evidence. Unfortunately, it's not evidence for you. It can't be.
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07-04-2012, 04:22 AM
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
Could we replace Egor with titanium wall into which we are going to hit our heads against?

The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism.
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07-04-2012, 05:50 AM
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
Come on Egor you are just trolling for the sake of trolling now.

If you truly think that atheists pray to something they don't believe exists or are rebelling against it for the sake of rebelling. Then either you are far more deluded than we thought or this is a deliberate attempt to wind up other members.

Because there is no way anyone could truly believe what you said in your OP.

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07-04-2012, 06:05 AM
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(07-04-2012 05:50 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Come on Egor you are just trolling for the sake of trolling now.

If you truly think that atheists pray to something they don't believe exists or are rebelling against it for the sake of rebelling. Then either you are far more deluded than we thought or this is a deliberate attempt to wind up other members.

Because there is no way anyone could truly believe what you said in your OP.

I agree, but I still figured I'd throw out an answer in assumption there is someone out there who would assume such a thing. Meh.
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07-04-2012, 07:39 AM
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(07-04-2012 03:07 AM)Egor Wrote:  I'll bet you think more about God than most religious people do.
Well, this, as a matter of fact, is probably true. We (atheists) think about god, that's the main reason why we stopped believing in one in the first place.

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07-04-2012, 09:12 AM (This post was last modified: 07-04-2012 09:17 AM by San Onofre Surfer.)
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
(07-04-2012 03:01 AM)Egor Wrote:  Given that I'm not a Christian and don't follow the Holy Bible, I'd say you're right.


Dude .... are you on drugs, or do you just have an Alzheimer's condition ?

From YOUR OWN web page : (didn't you just "re-write" your Babble ?)

"The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a new Gospel. It’s the same Gospel that has existed for two thousand years. It’s the same Gospel that can be found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, and it’s a message from God to mankind that will never disappear. What makes this record of the Gospel different is not the message, but the way in which it portrays that message. It corrects the mistakes of the ancient Gospel writers and the deterioration of context that has occurred over the centuries."

Then you assert it was the *inspired word", (but has mistakes), that of all people in history, well, surprise, surprise, YOU were *chosen* to correct ? Shouldn't you be locked up somewhere ? SO is YOUR inspiration any better than their *mistaken* inspiration ?

Each of the 4 gospels, chosen for our present canon, was written for specific reasons, and addressed to specific populations/demographic groups. "Re-writing" it destroys the intent and unique character of each one. So, first you re-write it, (in total ignorance of who and what they were addressing), and now you say you don't follow it. Hmm. Some people are just stupid ALL day.

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07-04-2012, 10:16 AM
RE: I Think Atheists Actually Believe in God
Quote:Why is there something rather than nothing?

Anthropic arguments can lead to slippery slopes if you assume too much into them. You can claim God and I can claim Thors hammer. The water can claim the pothole was perfectly designed for it to fit into and the bacteria can be amazed at all of the life forms it has to prey upon.


You might as well ask what an empty bowl of rice tastes like.


Quote:How can consciousness arise from unconscious matter?

First from abiogenesis and then through natural selection.

Quote:The universe began, but what began it?

the Hadron collider is trying to figure that out as we speak.

Quote:And why is Jesus Christ such an enduring presence in the consciousness of humanity?

I wouldnt exactly say that its enduring. Norse deities are far older and still draw respect. how about the Hindu deities? Much more older than Christianity and still popular as well. I suggest you do better homework.

Quote:Why do we seem to understand perfection with no examples of it?

Perfection is an opinion. Anything can be perfect since there really isnt such a thing as perfection..its only an opinion, and not an inherent fact of the universe

Quote:Why is there order in what seems to be a chaotic quantum reality?

because nature isnt random. It is ordered by the natural laws that propel their properties.

Quote:An atheist will tell you they just don’t know; can’t know; one day will know, or some other dodge. And yet, atheists are more aware of the arguments for God’s existence than the religious are. They know there’s only one explanation.

Speak for yourself.

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