I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger.
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08-06-2016, 04:55 PM
RE: I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger.
(08-06-2016 01:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It seems that many people dodged the draft. Ali is one of many.

How many of them sacrificed as much in order to not only retain one's own conscience -- which could be done in Canada -- but to work actively to change the minds of Americans? During the three years he couldn't box, Ali supported himself by speaking engagements, driving from town to town in his little VW Beetle ... speaking his views about the war in defiance of the government and the organization which, you know, had heretofore paid his bills.

That's a far cry from simple draft-dodging.
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08-06-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger.
(08-06-2016 01:51 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  That is not "dodging the draft".

Exactly -- that is confronting it. That is confronting the military establishment which deems such a draft necessary. That is confronting a society which holds the view that if you don't submit meekly, you are a coward, or worse ... a nonconformist.

(08-06-2016 01:51 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  And yes, it seems heroic to me. Among other things, he was standing up for all American black people.

I personally think his refusal to be inducted had a bit to do with the US discarding conscription by 1975.
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08-06-2016, 05:14 PM
RE: I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger.
(07-06-2016 05:22 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I don't hold Ali as a her, myself.

Caitlyn Jenner is not pleased. No

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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08-06-2016, 05:21 PM
RE: I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger.
(08-06-2016 01:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Sure, I understand America has a horrible history of being cruel to the native Indians and to blacks. I understand this may have influenced Ali's political position and draft dogging.

Yup, you got it. He dogged the shit out of the US Government and its anachronistic military draft. Looking back, they really never had a prayer against Ali.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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08-06-2016, 05:43 PM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2016 06:15 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger.
(08-06-2016 01:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  My point though is that Ali isn't an American hero for merely not wanting to fight.
Ali wasn't necessarily against the Vietnam war or against war in general. He just didn't consider the war to be a black issue. He was completely caught up in his Black Muslim thing. He segregated himself from the country and the government, which is the reason why he didn't want to fight. It wasn't his fight, he had nothing against the Viet Com.
There is nothing evil "wrong" about the above, if I were in his shoes perhaps I too would be avoiding the draft.
...
BUT, I'm personally very unclear how that makes him a national hero?

Because he didn't dodge the draft, he publicly challenged it. He confronted it. He was willing to go to jail over it. Post-Vietnam the Selective Service Registration requirement for all male citizens over 18 is still required (not registering deprives you of certain Government programs and Government employment) but it is feckless and impotent. Ali had something to do with that.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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08-06-2016, 06:10 PM
RE: I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger.
(08-06-2016 05:14 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-06-2016 05:22 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I don't hold Ali as a her, myself.

Caitlyn Jenner is not pleased. No

Ali would kick her ass ... excpept on the track.
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08-06-2016, 06:14 PM
RE: I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger.
(08-06-2016 05:43 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 01:44 PM)Stevil Wrote:  My point though is that Ali isn't an American hero for merely not wanting to fight.
Ali wasn't necessarily against the Vietnam war or against war in general. He just didn't consider the war to be a black issue. He was completely caught up in his Black Muslim thing. He segregated himself from the country and the government, which is the reason why he didn't want to fight. It wasn't his fight, he had nothing against the Viet Com.
There is nothing evil "wrong" about the above, if I were in his shoes perhaps I too would be avoiding the draft.
...
BUT, I'm personally very unclear how that makes him a national hero?

Because he didn't dodge the draft, he publicly challenged it. He was willing to go to jail over it. Post-Vietnam the Selective Service Registration requirement for all male citizens over 18 is still required (not registering deprives you of certain Government programs and Government employment) but it is feckless and impotent. Ali had something to do with that.

Also, wasn't he kicked out of boxing for a time for it?


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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08-06-2016, 06:17 PM
RE: I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger.
(08-06-2016 04:58 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I personally think his refusal to be inducted had a bit to do with the US discarding conscription by 1975.

Me too.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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08-06-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger.
(08-06-2016 06:10 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 05:14 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Caitlyn Jenner is not pleased. No

Ali would kick her ass ... excpept on the track.

I think you mean except on the track & field. I once took a discus to the knee. It is a deadly weapon.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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08-06-2016, 07:12 PM
RE: I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger.
(08-06-2016 06:14 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 05:43 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Because he didn't dodge the draft, he publicly challenged it. He was willing to go to jail over it. Post-Vietnam the Selective Service Registration requirement for all male citizens over 18 is still required (not registering deprives you of certain Government programs and Government employment) but it is feckless and impotent. Ali had something to do with that.

Also, wasn't he kicked out of boxing for a time for it?

Yes. Carlin had a great piece about it on his first album.


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