I am Believer - Challenge My Beliefs
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12-01-2015, 05:51 PM
RE: I am Believer - Challenge My Beliefs
Where did you obtain this insight? Surely its not self assigned.
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12-01-2015, 06:31 PM
RE: I am Believer - Challenge My Beliefs
(12-01-2015 05:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-01-2015 04:53 PM)AlephBet Wrote:  My beliefs are founded on the premise:

1) That the Spirit exists within us all.

2) There is evidence this creative aspect of the universe organized/created matter using information, calling it word (mirrored by DNA), then left evidence for its presence.

3) The highest good is seeing yourself in the whole, realizing the Spirit exists in all. By this the desire to harm others is removed.

4) The realization of Spirit changes a person to desire good in self and others. By this, the desire is to suffer for others by giving and receiving only, which is the demonstrated will of the Father in the Bible and other scriptures.

5) The denial of Spirit causes division, war, bloodshed and all manner of negativity toward others.

6) All people have sin nature, failing to see the larger significance of the same self within others. This is the universal animal nature in man to overcome for all humans, not just Atheists.

Belief 1 - 4 is evident and demonstrated to me by those I associate with. Belief 5 was confirmed here in this place.

Question to pose here: Why are Atheists always so hateful to others, not just believers? It does not affect me, but I am curious how you miss the significance of these verses below:

Galatians 5

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I am curious if you see this emerging on this forum? When I am in Christian forums, everyone is polite, even to Atheists. Of course there are exceptions to this. I have also see exceptions here, but he curve is statistically set toward a trend.

Read the last page and most other pages. Rage from the heart.

I speak from experience that love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control bring only goodness to my life. It amazes me that others do not desire this type of life by faith in the Spirit of God. Another past conclusion confirmed here.

All totally false presuppositional nonsense by someone who thinks he can JUDGE people he has never met. You're just a sad little mental midget, barely worth replying to. Atheists do as much good as non-believers. If you NEED a god as a crutch to make you be good, by all means cook one up. And back a few post YOU were talking about ad homs. And here you think you get to do it. There's no rage here. We are well aware that self-righteous people such as yourself think you are better than everyone. You people are a dime a dozen.

Now,..... where did you go to school ?

I refer you to the behavior and ill words in this thread only. I was here to have my beliefs challenged. They were confirmed. All of us suffer from the human nature that God seeks to heel / heal in us. Authority is the issue. Running from this authority produces the opposite fruit of running toward it. The fruit of the Spirit comes from loving others, with God being all of the others (including the individual).
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12-01-2015, 06:32 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2015 07:40 PM by AlephBet.)
RE: I am Believer - Challenge My Beliefs
(12-01-2015 05:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(12-01-2015 04:53 PM)AlephBet Wrote:  My beliefs are founded on the premise:

1) That the divine / intelligent Spirit exists within us all, freely offering to help us rise in both existence and intelligence / knowledge / wisdom.

2) There is evidence this creative aspect of the universe organized/created matter using information, calling it word (mirrored by DNA), then left evidence for its presence.

3) The highest good is seeing yourself in the whole, realizing the Spirit exists in all. By this the desire to harm others is removed.

4) The realization of Spirit changes a person to desire good in self and others. By this, the desire is to suffer for others by giving and receiving only, which is THE demonstrated will of the Father in the Bible and other scriptures.

5) The denial of Spirit causes division, war, bloodshed and all manner of negativity toward others.

6) All people have a sin nature, failing to see the larger significance of the universe self in all beings. This is the animal nature (beast) in man to overcome for all humans, not just Atheists.

Belief 1 - 4 is evident and demonstrated to me by those I associate with. Belief 5 was confirmed here in this place.

Question to pose here: Why are Atheists always so hateful to others, not just believers? It does not affect me, but I am curious how you miss the significance of these verses below:

Galatians 5

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I am curious if you see this emerging on this forum? When I am in Christian forums, everyone is polite, even to Atheists. Of course there are exceptions to this. I have also see exceptions here, but he curve is statistically set toward a trend.

Read the last page and most other pages. Rage from the heart.

I speak from experience that love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control bring only goodness to my life. It amazes me that others do not desire this type of life by faith in the Spirit of God. Another past conclusion confirmed here.

Atheists choose to be kind, law abiding people because it is the humanist thing to do..we don't need fear of a fabricated super diety who watches every detail of 7 billion peoples lives to make us "do right". Not only do atheists seem to have the moral high ground, but statistically we have the better perspective on appropriate inter-human, interpersonal skills designed to encourage free thought, and a peaceful society.

I have not seen the kindness in this thread.
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12-01-2015, 06:34 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2015 06:42 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: I am Believer - Challenge My Beliefs
Quote:alephbet
"Why are Atheists always so hateful to others, not just believers? It does not affect me, but I am curious how you miss the significance of these verses below"

--------------------------------------------
interesting, lets review..

I am an atheist because I have an open mind...education in the myth will give you clarity, and peace...when you learn that this subjugation by fear called religion is false, and that jesus never existed, all the major miraculous stories of the bible can be disproven, and you can trace the lie back to its very inception through the study of biblical historicity....you learn to evolve beyond the delusion..as I did...close minded is one who refuses to acknowledge the plethora of superior evidence to the contrary...and chooses to believe the lies anyway...the definition of blind faith.

We aren’t trying to sell you on anything, we have a close personal relationship with reality, not jesus, or any other mythical BS religious figure. Religion is the ultimate scam and while some of it is benign in nature, it is the radical "my view of my god is right and all of you heathens who believe otherwise better get on board" mentality that bothers me. it is the sneaky little financing of a politician who they support to get him/her in office so that their crazy agendas can be quietly slid into laws that guide this country. Those are the people we fight. If someone wants to whip a rubber chicken around their head while dancing in a counter clock wise circle quacking like a duck makes them feel closer to their mythical god, then by all means, knock yourself out...in the privacy of your own home or in a venue with likeminded individuals. Don’t shove the rubber chicken down my throat; don’t manipulate politicians to modify laws that affect us all, based on your views. Get me?

Now for everyone else, we are providing a free service...information to counter the misinformation being shoveled onto America by the theists. Feel free to open your mind and learn about the world around you, or not.

Top ten reasons I have found theists purport to prove god.

1. Shifting the Burden of Proof - I know God exists. If you disagree, prove otherwise. Oh you say you can't prove God doesn't exist? That's because you know he does!
2. Argument from Popularity - The vast majority of the world believes in God. This supports the universal truth that God is real, otherwise it makes no sense that so many people would believe.
3. The Transcendental Argument - God is, by definition, a being greater than which nothing can be conceived (imagined). Existence in reality is better than existence in one's imagination. God must exist in reality; if God did not, then God would not be that than which nothing greater can be conceived (imagined).
4. Argument from Coercion - You must believe in God/Jesus. It's your only hope for salvation. We are all doomed if we don't accept Jesus as our personal savior. It says so in the Bible. If you want to live forever and avoid suffering, you must accept God.
5. First Cause Argument - Everything that exists in our world is the result of some sort of "first cause" which brought about its existence. Therefore, there must have been a force which created the universe. That "first cause" is what we call God. Also known as Cosmological Argument.
6. Argument from Authority - God is real because the Bible (or whatever sacred text you believe in) says so. Why would so many people write so much about God if it wasn't true?
7. Argument from Personal Experience - I know god exists because I can feel him. I know it in my heart; he talks to me; I feel his strength and existence flow through every fiber of my being.
8. Argument from Improbability - The second law of thermodynamics says matter inevitably becomes entropic (spreads out in chaos) and this defies the observation on Earth where we see, things becoming more organized. Therefore God is responsible.
9. Pascal's Wager - It is a "safe bet" to believe in God just in case he is real. What's the harm? If you believe and he doesn't exist, you don't lose anything, but if you don't believe and he does exist, you lose big time.
10. Argument from Design - If you found a watch on the ground, you never met the watchmaker, but you know from its design, the beauty of it; the way each piece was intricately designed to work together, that this watch had a creator. Theists point to the human body; the precise way each of our organs work with each other and claim it's the most amazing "creation" of all, and surely there was some sort of creator behind it.

Should I bother to dismantle these for you, or as I am sure, you already know these are debunked, and have most likely been thoroughly kicked about on this site far before I got here.

Consider Stephen Hawking's last book The Grand Design..."scientists have come up with a type of theory, known as M-theory, that may describe the behaviour of all the fundamental particles and force, and even account for the very birth of the universe. If this theory is backed up by experiment, it might perhaps replace all religious accounts of creation"

Ego is a driving force for religion, think about it..Assuming a god existed, it really is very anthropocentric and a show of hubris to think that an all powerful god created man so man could worship and praise god. In fact, this really points to a human insecurity. Humanity's existence may well be pointless and random, with bacteria being god's chosen organisms of interest, but most humans wouldn't be comfortable with that. Even more bluntly, the concept of a god wouldn't exist if humans didn't exist, so god is an anthropocentric creation of humans (conveniently made in our image).

To put it another way, humanity is a cosmic blip representing a tiny fraction of what we observe of the current universe in terms of the numbers of objects, the numbers of living beings ("all god's creatures"), and even existence, depending on what you believe to be the age of the universe. That a putative architect of this universe would be cognizant of our particular situations and desire to listen to our woes, is ego indeed.

In regards to your why are atheists (according to you) so hateful to others...it appears to me to be just the opposite...

Consider this news story that came out in 2011 from the Washington Post:

Why do Americans still dislike atheists?

"Long after blacks and Jews have made great strides, and even as homosexuals gain respect, acceptance and new rights, there is still a group that lots of Americans just don’t like much: atheists. Those who don’t believe in God are widely considered to be immoral, wicked and angry. They can’t join the Boy Scouts. Atheist soldiers are rated potentially deficient when they do not score as sufficiently “spiritual” in military psychological evaluations. Surveys find that most Americans refuse or are reluctant to marry or vote for nontheists; in other words, nonbelievers are one minority still commonly denied in practical terms the right to assume office despite the constitutional ban on religious tests.

Rarely denounced by the mainstream, this stunning anti-atheist discrimination is egged on by Christian conservatives who stridently — and uncivilly — declare that the lack of godly faith is detrimental to society, rendering nonbelievers intrinsically suspect and second-class citizens.

Is this knee-jerk dislike of atheists warranted? Not even close.

A growing body of social science research reveals that atheists, and non-religious people in general, are far from the unsavory beings many assume them to be. On basic questions of morality and human decency — issues such as governmental use of torture, the death penalty, punitive hitting of children, racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, environmental degradation or human rights — the irreligious tend to be more ethical than their religious peers, particularly compared with those who describe themselves as very religious.

Consider that at the societal level, murder rates are far lower in secularized nations such as Japan or Sweden than they are in the much more religious United States, which also has a much greater portion of its population in prison. Even within this country, those states with the highest levels of church attendance, such as Louisiana and Mississippi, have significantly higher murder rates than far less religious states such as Vermont and Oregon.

As individuals, atheists tend to score high on measures of intelligence, especially verbal ability and scientific literacy. They tend to raise their children to solve problems rationally, to make up their own minds when it comes to existential questions and to obey the golden rule. They are more likely to practice safe sex than the strongly religious are, and are less likely to be nationalistic or ethnocentric. They value freedom of thought.

Denmark and Norway for example, which is among the least religious countries in the history of the world, consistently rates as the happiest of nations. And studies of apostates — people who were religious but later rejected their religion — report feeling happier, better and liberated in their post-religious lives.

On numerous respected measures of societal success — rates of poverty, teenage pregnancy, abortion, sexually transmitted diseases, obesity, drug use and crime, as well as economics — high levels of secularity are consistently correlated with positive outcomes in first-world nations. None of the secular advanced democracies suffers from the combined social ills seen here in Christian America.

More than 2,000 years ago, whoever wrote Psalm 14 claimed that atheists were foolish and corrupt, incapable of doing any good. These put-downs have had sticking power. Negative stereotypes of atheists are alive and well. Yet like all stereotypes, they aren’t true — and perhaps they tell us more about those who harbor them than those who are maligned by them. So when the likes of Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Bill O’Reilly and Newt Gingrich engage in the politics of division and destruction by maligning atheists, they do so in disregard of reality.

As with other national minority groups, atheism is enjoying rapid growth. Despite the bigotry, the number of American nontheists has tripled as a proportion of the general population since the 1960s. Younger generations’ tolerance for the endless disputes of religion is waning fast. Surveys designed to overcome the understandable reluctance to admit atheism have found that as many as 60 million Americans — a fifth of the population — are not believers. Our nonreligious compatriots should be accorded the same respect as other minorities."

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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12-01-2015, 06:35 PM
RE: I am Believer - Challenge My Beliefs
(12-01-2015 05:19 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:Question to pose here: Why are Atheists always so hateful to others, not just believers?

There are different atheists with different reasons to oppose theology. Many are of the garden variety, others are militant, and some are completely different than what you expect.

Atheists in general are not always hateful towards others. We love our children like anyone else. We feel compassion and love like everyone else. We have desires, dreams, and ambitions like everyone else.

I am an atheist, yes, but that by no means is what defines me. I maintain myself as an atheist because I have greatly studied theology and numerous believe systems. I do not hate theology as some here do.

And there is no hate in me for you as a person; as a self.

You are here trying to defend your beliefs from atheists. You issued a challenge to them, and they came out in force. You have bought the ire of your adversaries for a meager sum.

You have gotten what you have paid for, and it now brings harm to your self. This is the result of belief, as opposed to knowledge.

You have been the exception, which I noted in the first post today. I have met many kind Atheists, but mostly the kind that have reared the ugly head on this thread. Love is the point of my beliefs in the Spirit. The heart and mind seek the same invariant symmetry producing nature, but not fully apart from seeking it.

Yes, there are many individuals that seek goodness apart from recognizing it as all things produced by design.
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12-01-2015, 06:38 PM
RE: I am Believer - Challenge My Beliefs
(12-01-2015 05:37 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(12-01-2015 05:19 PM)Free Wrote:  There are different atheists with different reasons to oppose theology. Many are of the garden variety, others are militant, and some are completely different than what you expect.

Atheists in general are not always hateful towards others. We love our children like anyone else. We feel compassion and love like everyone else. We have desires, dreams, and ambitions like everyone else.

I am an atheist, yes, but that by no means is what defines me. I maintain myself as an atheist because I have greatly studied theology and numerous believe systems. I do not hate theology as some here do.

And there is no hate in me for you as a person; as a self.

You are here trying to defend your beliefs from atheists. You issued a challenge to them, and they came out in force. You have bought the ire of your adversaries for a meager sum.

You have gotten what you have paid for, and it now brings harm to your self. This is the result of belief, as opposed to knowledge.

Geez you talk shit.

Hate cannot dispel hate. Only love dispels hate. You are what you love in all cases. The words of all past scriptures that abide in this story of the Supreme Self in all things produce goodness in those who recognize what they are saying. In all cases, they are formatted to the symmetry in natural law. This is what proverbs are. They are restatements of natural law.

You can't be what you don't know.
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12-01-2015, 06:39 PM
RE: I am Believer - Challenge My Beliefs
(12-01-2015 06:31 PM)AlephBet Wrote:  
(12-01-2015 05:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  All totally false presuppositional nonsense by someone who thinks he can JUDGE people he has never met. You're just a sad little mental midget, barely worth replying to. Atheists do as much good as non-believers. If you NEED a god as a crutch to make you be good, by all means cook one up. And back a few post YOU were talking about ad homs. And here you think you get to do it. There's no rage here. We are well aware that self-righteous people such as yourself think you are better than everyone. You people are a dime a dozen.

Now,..... where did you go to school ?

I refer you to the behavior and ill words in this thread only. I was here to have my beliefs challenged. They were confirmed. All of us suffer from the human nature that God seeks to heel / heal in us. Authority is the issue. Running from this authority produces the opposite fruit of running toward it. The fruit of the Spirit comes from loving others, with God being all of the others (including the individual).

well that may be due to the ludicrous level of your assertions...we have had more than our share of crazies in here in the last 12 months....you must really look at what you posit ...and give it the reasonable person test...I enjoy civil theological discussions, and have embarked on several here within the boxing ring, free free to go look, but when the person asserts that a swirl in the ear canal bone, or hidden jewels of knowledge and proof of god are hidden within our DNA, and ancient languages, it doesn't make for a "thinking, serious discussion". When i disprove your sources within the bible, you wave it aside and state "I am not interested in the stories, but what is hidden within them"...if it is a fictional story, written by a group of non witness anonymous groups way after the fact, then what possible validity could your "hidden messages" have? I will answer that for you...zero. My purple unicorn story is no more ludicrous than yours...think about that...I can find hidden gems in the christmas grinch story, and point to specific patterns within the pictures and how they prove that Atlantis is real...but that isn't a serious assertion that people like me, who are well versed in this myth of jesus are going to treat kindly, or seriously.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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12-01-2015, 06:39 PM
RE: I am Believer - Challenge My Beliefs
(12-01-2015 06:31 PM)AlephBet Wrote:  I was here to have my beliefs challenged. They were confirmed.
You think that your beliefs were confirmed? I didn't see a single person here affirm or confirm a thing. No one here bought your "reasoning". To be plain, it is nothing that hasn't been seen (and disposed of) many times before. I'm new here, too, but I've seen it on other forums over a period of years. Specious deepities, baseless assertions, and circular arguments. Spoken by someone who is a legend in their own mind.
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12-01-2015, 06:40 PM
RE: I am Believer - Challenge My Beliefs
(12-01-2015 05:40 PM)Free Wrote:  
(12-01-2015 05:37 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Geez you talk shit.

And you have no understanding whatsoever what is happening here. Now go back to your rubber room and eat your minced vegetables from your spoon.

Any attempt to hijack this thread like you have others will be closely watched.

Love dispels hate. Love makes peace. No reason to breathe fire. This is the nature of judging others. You are simply showing what is in your own heart. I have tried to show this from my posts. The truth emerges from the symbols, allegories, history and metaphors in scripture. One truth. Love others. Judge not. You ARE the others.
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12-01-2015, 06:49 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2015 06:56 PM by AlephBet.)
RE: I am Believer - Challenge My Beliefs
(12-01-2015 05:51 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Where did you obtain this insight? Surely its not self assigned.

The Bible is about overcoming the self-righteous mind (exemplified by Yahweh) for the mind of Love for others (exemplified in Christ). The same judgement I read on this forum against the Lord of the Old Testament is the same mirrored attitude to me here in this thread. This is because the person who judges others is judging themselves. This is what the Lord is.

In the Gita and Upanishads, you find this out. It is defined for you in detail. Further, you have read about the mysteries and initiation. Again, it is defined in the previously mentioned scriptures. Initiation into what? The family of God and Kingdom. While some have initiated themselves to assist the will to take, they are the robbers mentioned by Jesus here:

John 10

"Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.

As the Bible states, a person must be prepared by the Father in Faith. Faith is our choice, but not our work. God's work is our faith. Seeking God leads to the target. Sin is missing the target, which is the definition of the word Chet in Hebrew. Sin is Chet, or missing this mark:

[Image: TAV.jpg]

The Gita and Upanishads tell you what state the mind must be in (righteousness) to find the Spirit of God within. To accomplish this, a person must find love for others first, then serve them rather than take from them. The true path is the narrow way (righteousness).

It can't be done for the wrong reasons. Duplicity is saying one thing, but desiring another. Seek goodness to receive reward and you are seeking reward. Seek goodness to avoid judgement and you are seeking your safety. Seek goodness because it is it's own reward, and you are seeking the goodness of others first. This is the hearts desire when prepared by God. As the Upanishads state, this can happen suddenly to anyone, regardless of their past. When the heart turns toward repentance of the past, the future is what you face. Past things are gone. He makes all things new. This is the gift. It is received or ignored.
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